Correct Roundoff Form

[Seiji]

I've seen people do it different ways... Mostly hand position on the floor.

I've seen those who do it in a cartwheel fashion with the second hand pointed inwards, and I've noticed an olympian does it more or less like a FHS with a half turn.

Which way do you think works best?

Also, I keep going off to the side in mine, even though I can do a cartwheel on a straight line. Tips?

[sasquatch]

I always see people over twisting their round off into a back handspring, even all the elites do it.

[Blairbob]

Many elites have poor textbook technique. To look for textbook technique, it's typically best to look at the younger junior nationals. Elites can make due since they are more powerful than everyone else.

There are a lot of hand techniques for teaching the RO. I might teach a beginner one way where as I would change it for an intermediate or advanced gymnast.

One technique is to initiate front and back tumbling as a front handspring step out and merely change the hand placement of the second hand at the last possible moment. This gets the forward momentum going, keeping the body square (versus turning the back leg or torso out to the side) and just changes the direction of the momentum with a hand placement.

Seiji, what type of hand placement do you use. Could you provide any video?

Going off to the side also happens if you use the T-hand method as the second hand is to the side of the first hand. It also can be caused by the lead lunge leg crossing over the centerline or a closed shoulder (usually in tandem with the head out) or an arched cartwheel (sometimes having to do with a closed shoulder or head out) or merely stepping the front leg way too much off the centerline (split your body in half at the belly button).

[Seiji]

Well, I tried it the elite's way (the over turning one) and it works REALLY well for me. It's too late today, but I'll put up a video tomorrow. I used to do the T hand, but yes, I would rebound sideways.

I am running on the line. Stepping off of my left leg, kicking the right up:

.................... ^ ..................

.................... | ..................

......... Right ... | .................. N

...... Hand ...... | .................. W E

.................... | .................. S

.................... | ..................

.................... | .. Left Hand....

Left Leg

Pay attention to the space in the dotted parts... blank is not correct. My right hand is about a foot and a half away from my left hand.

Left is facing WEST and right is SouthWest.

If it doesn't help... then just wait for the video.

[Blairbob]

I'll wait for the video.

Which leg do you lunge off?

Which direction do the fingers of your lead hand point? To the side or forwards. Which is the first hand down?

Using the method of a FHS entry RO, both hands can be placed roughly on the line. Lead hand is slightly off the line but still square to the hips and shoulders and not outside of them. The palms must be in the same line.

If one hand if over further ( I have taught this before and it's what I used to teach ), you get the issue of going sideways.

FHS entry with the 2nd hand turned sideways keeps me on the line. Easily applied to beam and tsuk vaults.

[Seiji]

I'll wait for the video.

Which leg do you lunge off?

Which direction do the fingers of your lead hand point? To the side or forwards. Which is the first hand down?

Using the method of a FHS entry RO, both hands can be placed roughly on the line. Lead hand is slightly off the line but still square to the hips and shoulders and not outside of them. The palms must be in the same line.

If one hand if over further ( I have taught this before and it's what I used to teach ), you get the issue of going sideways.

FHS entry with the 2nd hand turned sideways keeps me on the line. Easily applied to beam and tsuk vaults.

I lunge off of my left leg, the right going up first.

Lead hand as in first one down? To the side.

Lead hand as in second one down? If I was running forwards, then it would be facing to the side and back at 45 degrees from the centerline.

Jesus. The way you describe it, I've never seen a correct roundoff from anyone.

Yea, the video explains it better than I would. It looks a lot like this one actually:

I'll stop finding examples and just show you tomorrow lol

*tomorrow happens*

I'm not feeling well today... I'll put up a video when I get better. Sorry D:

[Blairbob]

Again, every coach has different ideas on the round-off and of course different application of it. For horizontal momentum or vertical momentum.

[John Sapinoso]

If I am interpreting this correctly, I used to round off the same way. . .when I was doing tsukahra vaults and needed extra height. Pointing the second hand in the direction you run supposedly facilitates blocking and added height. I'm not sure if this is true but it seemed to help me, perhaps because it allowed me to focus on keeping my shoulder extended by my ear and block earlier. I never roundoffed like that on floor. If this mechanism that I proposed is truly how it works, I can see why it would not be applicable though.

[dlsso]

I've been seeing/hearing a lot of different things about roundoff form and I would like to get a few sorted out. I'm not competing in gymnastics so my basic question unsurprisingly is what style you think gets the most power. The original way I heard was something like:

1. Enter from a lunge

2. Come down square, shoulders at ears

3. Reach over at the last second to land palms in line, facing sideways

4. Push with the shoulders

5. Do not pike down, feet hit well behind you, arms and chest swing up to add height for your back skill

Main variations seem to be in hand placement, some turning the second hand toward the back, some even reaching it around.The most extreme version of that can be seen here:

Is he getting his power because of that, in spite of it, or is it more a preference thing?

What style do you think gets the most power?

[Blairbob]

Wow, super wide arms that hit bent.

Thing is, this guy is already powerful to begin with. I'm sure a view from the side or diagonal would show even more oddities.

He actually enters with bent arms and is strong/powerful enough that he can extend them quickly enough from the block. It's not textbook, but it works. I'd guess he probably breaks his shoulder angle as well.

When it comes to the RO, most coaches all will agree that the blocking action is the same but have different ideas into the hand placement and how it affects the block and the push of the legs in the hurdle action (bent vs straight [that bends]) or chasse)

Again, it gets down to what you do with the RO and if you need horizontal or vertical amplitude.

For RO>Arabian, I enter my RO high so I go up more. For RO>BHS series>back tuck, pike, layout I focus on turning it over more to enter the BHS series for horizontal amplitude.

[Gregor]

Allways teach the correct version of elements, at the end the elites will always do some modificatons for backhandspring or roundoffs..With bent arms you will produce more force in backhandspring because you can turn faster, but never teach this kids, and I say never!!

For roundoff: this is one of the most difficult basic elements to teach it correctly!

I teaching it as front handspring with turn in the begining. Basicly just do front handspring with turned palms in letter T, then the body turns naturaly. So we produce more force then we would with circle-wheel style (sideways).

[dlsso]

Ok, so supposing I want vertical amplitude my foot and hand placement should be like this except the second hand turned to the back?

Or would the second hand also move around to the side?

[Seiji]

1- Dlsso, why does it say you have 2 posts? I thought you had way more than that...

OH! Are you the dlsso frm TT?

2- What is that mat even supposed to teach? It looks like a bad cartwheel

[dlsso]

Yeah, my account here got deleted. They actually said it was never activated, though I could have sworn I posted before, but anyway...

Yeah, same guy.

2. The takeoff foot landing foot and hands are all on the same line. Looks like a good cartwheel to me aside from being super crunched.

[Seiji]

I always thought cartwheels were supposed to be in a straight line as in toe to middle of the palm on both sides... A mat that teaches tricking cartwheels? LOL

[Gregor]

mat is not good!

Second hand must be turned so it must look like letter T. And all must be in straight line. Also it must be longer first part and shorter second part (courbet-wip) and where the hell is place for pushing leg?

[Blairbob]

Guys, these mats are used for tiny, young children of the ages 2-5.

Our HC prefers the first hand with fingertips forward like front handspring, second hand turned to sideways. Another coach and mentor told me this was a good drill early on but may blunt turn over power of the block.

However, considering many young gymnasts have sloppy and poor RO technique, teaching it as a front handspring with the second hand turned is a good idea.

[dlsso]

I'm sure my roundoff technique right now is pretty poor, but I'm pretty good with attention to detail. Do you think it would be okay for me to aim to do them the better way? (I haven't learned a correct front handspring yet, if that makes a difference)

I will update with a picture in a few minutes to make sure I understand the hand and foot position.

[dlsso]

Alright, is it something like this?

[Sternford]

If I were to post something similar, this is the way I do mine (but more stretched out of course)

[dlsso]

Yeah, I guess that makes more sense except the first hand would be sideways for the way I was envisioning it.

Is that the way you meant blairbob?

[Blairbob]

Naturally, I turn the first hand sideways and second hand T-ing the first. The Front Handspring entry technique is what those diagrams show.

As well with the second hand, I have placed it roughly shoulder width distance off the first hand so I reach out and around. Of course the RO hands in the diagram works better for Balance Beam or the Old Long Horse. That technique also teaches a straight line while reaching around places the gymnast tumbling straight but off their centerline from their initial start.

[dlsso]

Alright, so T hands and moving off the line slightly for floor tumbling. Do you put your first hand down in the center or in the same line as your foot? Pictures to show what I mean:

........................Picture A..............................................................Picture B....................

[Blairbob]

Both feet are on same line as is first hand, well roughly.

The left foot stays just on the side of the left part of the line as does the right. If we stand with your feet on either side of a line, that imaginary line will bisect you from crotch to the top of your head. A common error in RO hurdle-lunge is stepping across one's center line.

I've played with putting the first hand on the line and just off, but generally I teach it on the line.

[dlsso]

It's still a little bit hard for me to follow you, but if I'm understanding you correctly it's essentially like picture A but you start with your feet touching the line rather than shoulder width apart. Correct?