Question

Here are videos of me doing the same positions, since you said videos are better. I found that it was painful to try and perform this movement with my right arm. Hollowing my lower back and keeping my shoulder on the ground was painful. 

 

Video #1:

 

Video #2:

 

 

Off to do my HS workout and TBs since I haven't yet today. We'll see how that goes. Will check back later. Cheers. 

 

Also, the straddle V-stretch Coach just posted to Facebook looks to be something I will incorporate with hip extension work.

You have extremely tight chest both superior, medial , lower fibers and little pec. i'm not surprised by your pain. with this shortened muscles it is impossible that your shoulder could work in the right way. the overhead movements are completely changed in comparison to a normal shoulders, rotator cuff does not work good and the body will compensate. my suggestion is unilateral work of stretching. so take the chest stretching exercises of foundations and do them daily, one side at time. it will take months maybe years.

 

 

it will take months maybe years.

Great....Guess I better get started then, huh?

In the meantime, anything else I could/should incorporate? I'll include all the Foundation shoulder work that I can (bought F1-4 this month). But, in the meantime should I just lock in and get to it? Or can I continue to focus on HBP as I have been? How about TBs and my HS work?

Me thinks I might just focus on chest stretches instead of TBs. Any downsides to that? Given the intensity of TBs and the deficiencies which I have it seems baby steps might be the best approach. But I've been wrong before.

TBs is good but actually you progress will be slow due to tight chest, in fact in your situation you have not chance of extending the arms in the elevated bridge without compensating with lower back arching.

Yes, which was my thinking.

So, should I wait on doing any more HS work and focus on the HBP mobilities? Similarly, to wait on TBs and put more emphasis on HBP and doing the mobilities Foundation 2 and Foundation 3? My thinking is to focus more on the mobilities and unilateral stretches for my chest before going back to more dedicated handstand and bridge work by gaining more ROM (I'll keep up with the wrist walks/wrist pushups from the Handstand series in the meantime since I've just mastered out of PE4).

Anyways, these are my musings. I'd rather go back and fix my deficiencies than to make progress that is stalled, or intermittent at best, if any progress at all. Seems logical to fix my tight chest before I try and gain a thoracic bridge or adequate shoulder flexion and extension. Yes? No?

Thank you for this thread, Daniel. As it now, after reading this and trying Alessandro's test, turns out I seem to have an issue very similar to yours, so I will be following the thread closely.

I found these two links. Seeing that I haven't got much in the way of: "try this, work on that..." that I was hoping for. I'm going to work on the suggestions from the two following links. Once I can manage better flexion in HS/PE1-im, I'll continue to keep up with these exercises, but will also come back to TBs. Right now I want to focus on improvement the weakness and getting back to baseline. I've got forever, so we'll see how this actually takes to fix.

 

 

http://www.ericcressey.com/train-overhead

 

http://www.hybridperspective.com/2013/10/03/bridge-mobility-why-your-gymnasts-may-be-struggling-possible-injury-prevention-for-the-lower-back/#

Maybe Alessandro's saying your are extremely tight is relative. For a gymnast or handbalancer yes, but for a typical person, you are pretty normal and I imagine that at least 75% of people coming into the program will have similar or worse shoulder flexion.

 

That doesn't mean it's ok for our purposes, of course it needs to be worked, but it's not hopeless. It will take time though. 

 

IMO dropping TB wouldn't make sense at all, personally I'd add long holds in key Foundations/HS iM's and curtail the TB series at the first elevated bridge. 

Thanks, Cole. I appreciate that. I'll take your advice and throw them into the mix. Didn't end up doing TBs, but I'll get back to it this week and focus on the HBP/RC im's diligently.

Well. A few days down and I can say that dialing it back has paid huge dividends. Stretching with a bit less intensity with the TBs and being more careful with my form has helped tremendously. I found that by retracting my scapula (in the setup for the mobility) before raising my arms in HS/PE1>im that I have been able to do this movement pain-free, with my arms and torso at 180, and with 5lbs. I'm going to keep working it for a few more weeks/sessions to ensure that my mobility has definitively improved and without pain. I also found that retracting my scapula and locking my elbows  during TBs, in Inverted Cat; stretch band Curl-ups and Archups; and in the Elevated Thoracic Bridge (as well as the pushups, and hip taps -- substituting these for extra sets of ETB holds) that I was able to feel the stretch in my thoracic spine and was able to the movements pain-free, as well. I maintained this arm position during the wall walks, too, and this felt good. 

My point being that I've realized my form and setup was off in all of these moves, and as such, my body was overcompensating in my shoulder capsule, because I was doing these moves with pain-inducing form and that doing so resulted in me having limited ROM. 

 

Going forward, I hope that such divinations will help me to improve and increase my ROM in a safe, steady way.

 

Edit: I also used the Straddle Tuck Hold in my workout today and found that it really helps increase ROM for MN/PE2 (which Coach posted on Facebook the other day). I found that this was very helpful on my first set, but for one reason or another it wasn't as effective in later sets. I intend to incorporate on off-days to improve active flexibility in this position as it profoundly improved it when I did this move today. 

I wonder about this though. It's good to be pain-free, but I was under the impression we're supposed to avoid retracting when working on flexion mobility.

I'm only retracting prior to raising my arms overhead (in HS/PE1>im). I realized that before I was protracting my shoulders hard and so trying to rais my arms overhead in that position did something funky that my shoulders did not like. If I'm doing something wrong then color me confused. I'll eventually post a form check to clarify what I'm trying to explain with words.

Ah, well, form check is always the best call so people more knowledgable than I can guide you. I know the sensation you mean from protracting while raising arms overhead in this drill. I've had this issue as well. I think maybe focusing too much on protraction can distract us from elevation which must be more important for this. Might be we just need to focus on squeezing those traps upward and let the shoulder move naturally into position instead of trying to force it one way or another.

Hey Daniel,

what seems to have helped my own shoulder problems tremendously (in addition to focused and more frequent stretching) has actually been swimming.

I think bringing the arms overhead over and over again for the sliding phase (not a native speaker, so I'm not sure what this is actually called in English; I'm talking about the part in breast stroke where you are in a HS-like position) really helped me loosening up the shoulders. Plus, it feels like it also loosens up my upper back after scap shrugs.

Hey Leonhard, 

 

I've actually realized that myself. I've started incorporating bar dislocates (with 1.25-2.5 lbs and a comfortable width) and wall extensions (though I have to do them prone, with my back on the ground AND my knees bent) have helped. I've also incorporated a biceps stretch (HBP/PE11>im) as well as two stretches for internal rotation that I found elsewhere. RC/PE2>im has also helped tremendously with tightness in my lats. I'm taking it slow and hope to move past this im sometime around Christmas or February at the soonest. I'm trying to take it easy, even though I have a high propensity for getting overzealous. 

Update:

After working mobilities daily, I've come to realize that without a doubt the issue lies where my biceps tendons (both the short head and long head) meet my shoulder. On my right arm, this area is much, much tighter than my left. My right pec minor, as a result, is also much tighter. Working this slowly coupled with foam rolling my thoracic spine, the teres minor/serratus anterior, and using a lacrosse ball for my pec minor help a ton. As dislocates are still difficult (since the greater ROM on my left arm tends to bring my right arm out of its ROM -- what I believe to be the issue at the heart of my HS/PE1-im problems)  I've had to regress to doing supine windmills with my arms. Similarly, my right arm has much less ROM than my left when doing supine wall extensions, so I've had to be careful with these (my left arm can almost lock out the elbow, the right can reach maybe 45 degrees of my shoulder). I have also found TBs/SE3, SE4, and SE15 to be phenomenal for my biceps tendons and pectorals though I've cut down the number of reps or the length of each set by almost half and upped the number of sets. Concurrently working to open up the lats by doing dead hangs with scapular protraction and shoulder elevation coupled with RC/PE2>im are also helping to ensure that while I focus more on the chest the lats also continue to open up and gain more ROM.

 

Having honed in on what specifically is the trouble area will hopefully help expedite my lacking ROM and stretch accordingly. I'm going to try and see if there's a one-armed regression for HS/PE1-im that might help me increase ROM, arm-by-arm until my right arm has opened up more. I will respond back with another update once I've figured out something that works and is applicable over the longer term for my recovery. At first guess, a one-armed prone Y raise for my deltoid might do the trick, but we shall see.

 

* For those curious, I augmented Joe DeFranco's Simple 6 for the upper body along with the relevant HBP ims and TBs stretches that help. If you're wondering about some of the specific foam rolling, stretching, or mobilities I'm working on you can look to those three places. Ciao!

I also have similar biceps and pec minor tightness (not really in the lats) in my right arm going all the way into the neck. I have also just begun dislocates with the widest possible grip along with stick + 1.25 kg only. 3 x 5 reps crush me. I also feel like my right side is limiting me and therefore I tend to compensate with my left arm. I generally perform them in front of a mirror so that I can check my form.

 

How is H1 PE 2 iM? Here my right side is also limiting further rom.

It's decent, but not great. Doing more digging I've realized that it's simply bicep tendonitis in my right arm. So banded external/international rotation and shoulder extension work is what will likely help me most. So, though it's against the format of the course, I'm working on HS/PE2 and PE2>im while going easy on PE1>im until I can do it pain-free and at mastery, once my biceps flexibility has improved and the tendonitis goes away. (I realized that in my search for an answer I, again, was getting overzealous and trying pile on too much prehab work for my shoulders instead of focusing on a few things that fit the bill). 

 

So, I do 2x20 external rotations; 2x20 internal rotations; 2x10 shoulder extension raises; 2x10 wall extensions (supine for now with knees bent) and 5x10" shoulder extension raises with 2.5-5lbs. I also do some stretching with 7x1' dead hangs with as much protraction and elevation that I can handle; 2x45" sleeper stretch; and 3x30" doorway stretches (arm out straight and parallel to ground stretch in chest/shoulder). I spread this out over the day, typically in the morning and before bed, or I include it in the day's workout.

So, I think I might've cracked the code so to speak. I realize that through the course of working this element, I had not been consciously focusing on scapula elevation nor scapula protraction. Somehow, the result of improper form led to some bicep issue that bordered on tendonitis. After realizing the issue in my form for HS/PE1>im I was able to correct it during shoulder workouts. I also found that working

 

the ROM of my biceps (TBs/SE3; HBP/PE11>im and PE15>im performed while standing and in a doorway),

shoulder extension (HS/PE2 and PE2>im),

and other mobilities (dislocates with 2.5lbs; supine wall extensions; prone YTI raises; banded external and internal rotations; dead hangs with elevation, protraction, and PPT; sleeper stretch) have helped tremendously.

 

While my biceps issue is quite improved, it is not yet resolved. I did another form check today and feel confident about the progress of HS/PE1>im. Here's the video, which I will also post in a form check in the handstand forums.

 

Edit: I also realized how bloody easy this progression was compared to what I was making it into, once I focused on trying to have proper shoulder position and body line (here's to hoping the shoulder protraction in this element helps with sPL/PE1). Sigh. Paralysis by overanalysis.

 

I'm right there with you, Daniel. I had been working on this iM for a long long time before doing some travelling for half a year. Now I'm back and taking the opportunity to shore up from the very start again. I only just realized I had been approaching this iM wrong the entire time. I always tried to pull my arms behind my head like in the course video, which meant my shoulders would rotate a bit to get there because I don't have that kind of mobility otherwise. Progress was hard to come by and a few times I aggravated my shoulder, having to take a couple weeks off, most recently last month soon after restarting training. I thought that I was just using too narrow a grip those times. I always felt very strong contraction in the traps so I figured the form was right.

 

Having reviewed some of the form checks on the HS forum I see that the straight body line from hip to hand is the real key, at least at first. I used this cue last session and wow, massive difference. Before now I would move into the right position, and then right past it into the wrong position. My shoulders feel freaking awesome today. Only took an eternity to realize. Oh the trials of training alone.

Just to touch on this thread again, I've been doing dislocates with an overhead and underhand grip as a stretch/cooldown after my handstand work, as well as wall extensions. My shoulders are pretty much recovered at this point. I've also been sure to focus on protraction and elevation with shoulder flexion (and conversely depression and retraction with shoulder extension). My shoulders have never felt better honestly and, not that I was on the fence before, but I'm definitely a through and through GST evangelist at this point.