FL/PE2 Harsh Back Pain

Hi everyone,

I want to start saying that I have some mild back issues and have been struggling with back pain when doing any kind of high volume abdominal work since I can remember it.

My right leg is about 6mm shorter than the other and that caused a hip rotation and scoliosis.

I do well with hard low reps ABs exercises but obviously I'm really struggling with FL since the exercise involved are high reps especially with the dynamic ones (PE2, PE4, etc).

I've been working FL/PE2 for more than 1 year with very little progress. When performing the exercise after few reps I start to feel a burning sensation where the Thoracic Spine meets the Lumbar, that turns into harsh pain and I have to stop (usually around 24/30 reps). The pain fades away quickly but when I start a new set the same happens.

I've tried to change my form multiple times based on what I read on the forum but the only thing that helped to get few more reps is to stretch the hip flexors multiple times a week as suggested by my massage therapist.

My chiro says that it could be that my abs aren't strong enough and also that the pain may be cause by the spine structure being not aligned where the spine is twisted (because of the scoliosis).

At this point I don't really know what to do I've been stall on that progression for so long...

I really hope that someone can give me some suggestion even because I'll have the same issue with all the rolling FL progressions and partially with the static ones as well.

Any suggestion is welcome.

I'm attaching a form check video just to see if I'm doing something totally incorrect.

Thanks,

Alessandro

https://youtu.be/fmipeLnhbnY

I have the same problem. I have had chronically short iliacus and psoas muscles for years. What you are feeling is the lumbar vertebrae shearing forward. It happens when you cannot control each vertebrae with flexion. I noticed on your video you hit a flat spot on your back rather than getting a nice roll on the lumbar spine.

You need to really focus on getting the low back so it is a connvex surface to roll on. Keep pulling the ribs down and the pubic bone up to the ribs.

You may need some psoas and iliacus releases as well as anterior lumbar disc mobilisation to speed things up. Speak with you therapists about this.

I also spend up to 30 mins a day stretching and releasing the psoas and iliacus muscles.

Be persistent as will get it eventually. It took me three years of hard work and now I can do hollow body rocks. I still terminate the set if I feel the thoracic pain as it indicates I have lost control of the lumbar spine.

Thanks a lot for the reply Mark.

You got it right when I get tired I hit a flat spot and feel like I'm losing control of my spine.

Do you have any good resource you can share for iliacus and psoas strecthing?

Probably I could use some of the exercises from the front split strecthing program like fss-se20 to 23 daily.

Thanks again,

Alessandro

I do this daily https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/21739-psoas-hip-flexor-release/?hl=%2Bpsoas+%2Brelease

The FS exercises you mentioned can be done daily but with less intensity. Hard stretching should only be done once a week.

Great thanks,

I read the post and start with the release today, looking forward to trying it out and I'm already trying to keep my ribs pulled down while walking

I tried to look for your iliacus release post as well but couldn't find it. Could you point me to that if you already posted it?

In addition to Mark's good info, strengthening the deep abdominal muscles in a pain free position may consolidate the lengthening from the stretch and releasing. Example:

Scaled FL/PE3: maintaining the feet on ground. Form: good pelvic tilt, low black pressing into the ground with deep abdominal muscle contraction, and no pain. If this can not be acheived, (secondary to increased lordosis), feet can be elevated on stretch blocks and toes pressing into wall with perfect form. This position strengthens and lengthens, while creating a mechanical disadvantage on the iliopsoas. It decreases the shearing moment arm on the lumbar spine, as Mark talked about, found when the hips are flexed up. The hips flexing up is a by product of strong deep abs posterior tilting the pelvis up first, where the hip flexor contractions are secondary. Rocking and movement occurs once this solid base is established. As for me, I begin to shake like a fish out of water trying to address the longer holds in these positions. :-)

Good luck!

Ryan

I still need to post the iliacus release.

I have something similar Alessandro in that my right hip flexor, psoas and groin get very tight and "pull up" my right leg into the socket, leading to back pain on that side.

I have mild scoliosis too and looked into Schroth therapy but apparently I didn't need it. I have finally learnt to focus specifically on my right hip and stretching and loosening this side using the usual stretches. I also use a mini football to "massage" my psoas kind of like Kelly Starrett recommends.

I find the FL elements ok but things like sprints really aggravate it. I also find driving a lot makes it worse obviously too.

I find these things really help me so they may or may not help you. Good luck!

Ryan Bailey said:

In addition to Mark's good info, strengthening the deep abdominal muscles in a pain free position may consolidate the lengthening from the stretch and releasing. Example:

Scaled FL/PE3: maintaining the feet on ground. Form: good pelvic tilt, low black pressing into the ground with deep abdominal muscle contraction, and no pain. If this can not be acheived, (secondary to increased lordosis), feet can be elevated on stretch blocks and toes pressing into wall with perfect form. This position strengthens and lengthens, while creating a mechanical disadvantage on the iliopsoas. It decreases the shearing moment arm on the lumbar spine, as Mark talked about, found when the hips are flexed up. The hips flexing up is a by product of strong deep abs posterior tilting the pelvis up first, where the hip flexor contractions are secondary. Rocking and movement occurs once this solid base is established. As for me, I begin to shake like a fish out of water trying to address the longer holds in these positions. :-)

Good luck!

Ryan

Thanks Ryan but not sure if I understand this exercise. Should I keep the legs wide and upper back down as well?

Does HS/PE4 engage the same muscles?

Sorry Alessandro, I have a tough time teach posterior pelvic tilt and lower spine progressions in person to my own patients;  I am finding it even more difficult to explain exercises over a computer.

No HS/PE4 is different, but similar alignment. 

What I basically am talking about is scaled FL/PE1, or FL/PE3 where the feet are in contact with the ground... that's about it.  (Similar to standing upright in a straddle, practicing a lengthened hip flexor, tight glutes and abs ext...) This allows no hip flexor bias.  

The FL/PE3 is simply a very nice position I am finding where the hip flexor is somewhat lengthened while contracting the deep abdominals. I am finding Coach's abdominal hold timeframes (around 3 minutes with minimal rest), allow a solid foundation of the spine prior to bringing in the hip flexor's action during a rocking motion. 

Basically, if anyone was having low back pain, and the hip flexors are over activating during the rock movement, I would re-video the holds and compare every angle to the mastery video to assure the solid spine base has been established.  I stayed on FL/PE1 for over 6 months to try and assure the spine and abdominals were doing all the work.  (But now working FL/PE3, I feel this position is really helpful for establishing this strong lower spine stability.)

Hope this makes sense. 

Ryan

Dave Wilkinson said:

I have something similar Alessandro in that my right hip flexor, psoas and groin get very tight and "pull up" my right leg into the socket, leading to back pain on that side.

I have mild scoliosis too and looked into Schroth therapy but apparently I didn't need it. I have finally learnt to focus specifically on my right hip and stretching and loosening this side using the usual stretches. I also use a mini football to "massage" my psoas kind of like Kelly Starrett recommends.

I find the FL elements ok but things like sprints really aggravate it. I also find driving a lot makes it worse obviously too.

I find these things really help me so they may or may not help you. Good luck!

Thanks for your input Dave, now that I think about it a certain point a chiropractor told me that it seemed like the shorter leg was caused by tightness in the hip more than shorter bones! I'll look into KStar's psoas stretch and also into Schroth therapy. 

Ryan Bailey said:

Sorry Alessandro, I have a tough time teach posterior pelvic tilt and lower spine progressions in person to my own patients;  I am finding it even more difficult to explain exercises over a computer.

No HS/PE4 is different, but similar alignment. 

What I basically am talking about is scaled FL/PE1, or FL/PE3 where the feet are in contact with the ground... that's about it.  (Similar to standing upright in a straddle, practicing a lengthened hip flexor, tight glutes and abs ext...) This allows no hip flexor bias.  

The FL/PE3 is simply a very nice position I am finding where the hip flexor is somewhat lengthened while contracting the deep abdominals. I am finding Coach's abdominal hold timeframes (around 3 minutes with minimal rest), allow a solid foundation of the spine prior to bringing in the hip flexor's action during a rocking motion. 

Basically, if anyone was having low back pain, and the hip flexors are over activating during the rock movement, I would re-video the holds and compare every angle to the mastery video to assure the solid spine base has been established.  I stayed on FL/PE1 for over 6 months to try and assure the spine and abdominals were doing all the work.  (But now working FL/PE3, I feel this position is really helpful for establishing this strong lower spine stability.)

Hope this makes sense. 

Ryan

Ahahah thanks Ryan, on the other hand English is not my mother tongue...

Today while performing FL exercises I though maybe I should go back to PE1 and not move on till I solve this issue. 

I'll try your scaled version and see how it feels and if I'm able to engage my deep abs correctly.

Should I keep the upper back up?

I've also noticed that on PE3 my upper body doesn't come up as much as the athlete in the video. It may be because of the tight psoas?

At this point I've been doing the FL/PE3 scale down version for over a month trying to focus on engaging my deep abs following these cues:

-Imagine a line that connects the inside of your two pelvic bones (front of hips). Think about connecting, or drawing the muscle, along this line as if closing two book covers.

-Contract your pelvic floor by drawing the muscles from behind your pubic bone to your tail bone and the left and right sides of your pelvic floor together and then like a draw string bag, gently draw the entire pelvic floor up.

From this website:

https://www.dianelee.ca/article-training-deep-core-muscles.php

I've also being doing the psoas realease that Mark suggested (not as often as I would like) and some other release using a ball.

The result is that now I can feel my abs working differently, it feels like some of the deep abs weren't engaging correctly before. This is really encouraging!

Unfortunately I noticed that I'm not really sure if I'm activating different muscles in the right order and I cannot be consistent. For instance some reps I can lift my upper body quite high, others it stays low, Also the pain on my back comes and goes.

What I'm doing now is getting in position (on my back, straddle legs, neutral spine), following the cues above avoiding PPT, then crunch up and PPT at the same time. In this last part I'm not consistent and not sure how to engage the right muscles in the right order.

Any suggestion?

Thanks

Alessandro Pantanella said:

At this point I've been doing the FL/PE3 scale down version for over a month trying to focus on engaging my deep abs following these cues:

-Imagine a line that connects the inside of your two pelvic bones (front of hips). Think about connecting, or drawing the muscle, along this line as if closing two book covers.

-Contract your pelvic floor by drawing the muscles from behind your pubic bone to your tail bone and the left and right sides of your pelvic floor together and then like a draw string bag, gently draw the entire pelvic floor up.

 

From this website:

https://www.dianelee.ca/article-training-deep-core-muscles.php

 

I've also being doing the psoas realease that Mark suggested (not as often as I would like) and some other release using a ball.

 

The result is that now I can feel my abs working differently, it feels like some of the deep abs weren't engaging correctly before. This is really encouraging!

Unfortunately I noticed that I'm not really sure if I'm activating different muscles in the right order and I cannot be consistent. For instance some reps I can lift my upper body quite high, others it stays low, Also the pain on my back comes and goes.

 

What I'm doing now is getting in position (on my back, straddle legs, neutral spine), following the cues above avoiding PPT, then crunch up and PPT at the same time. In this last part I'm not consistent and not sure how to engage the right muscles in the right order.

 

Any suggestion?

 

Thanks

Wow, Great explaination!

Sounds like you have found the sweet spot. The rest of the movement will likely be linking the two with practice. Great work.

As alternatives, sometimes I practice:

1) legs down, PPT, then upper body hold, or,

2) PPT, Legs up, Upper body down, then

3) Link together (PPT,legs and upper body up for FL/PE1 or 3)

Good luck and again, nice update on your progress.

Ryan

Ryan Bailey said:

Wow, Great explaination!

Sounds like you have found the sweet spot. The rest of the movement will likely be linking the two with practice. Great work.

As alternatives, sometimes I practice:

1) legs down, PPT, then upper body hold, or,

2) PPT, Legs up, Upper body down, then

3) Link together (PPT,legs and upper body up for FL/PE1 or 3)

Good luck and again, nice update on your progress.

Ryan

Thanks for the support Ryan,

I'll try these variations as well.

This weak spot has been holding me back for too long and I really want to overcome the problem.

Ale