One more shoulder pain victim

Hi guys,

I tried to lie to myself for the past two or three days, but I need to come clean and admit that I have pain in my right shoulder. I didn't think I was doing anything stupid and just following the programming, but maybe I just used poor form while trying to understand RC/PE1 movement and the TB stretch series.

Or I should have started most of the elements at week 1 and work my volume up in a better progression...

Anyway, the pain is in the front of the shoulder and irradiates mainly down to the arm, but also a little but towards the neck. I can find, by touching, that the worst point of pain is the tendon, I believe.

I'm not a doctor, but I read all I could find in this forum and it sounds like tendonitis is the most common cause of these symptoms.

I plan to not exercise the shoulder at all (already been resting for a week, as I was traveling) for the next 3-4 weeks, by skipping all PEs that involve the shoulder (including the HS/PE1 that was the most painful of all).

My questions is about mobility, should I also skip all the mobility exercises and the TB stretch series, for a while? I definitely feel like I shouldn't do stiff legs windmills, but I'm new to all of this.

I had this in the past while I was playing raquetball a few times a week and I just pushed through (how dumb), and luckily this time the pain is way milder.

After how many weeks should I just give in and go to the doctor if the pain doesn't go away?

Thanks!

Rest your shoulder compleatly (both strenght and mobility) would be the smartest thing, after two weeks pain should be gone if not visit your doctor.

If area where you feel pain is inflamed try to put some ice on it, not to long just to reduce inflammation a bit.

Ah the shoulder pain.  I had similar experience, not from playing raquetball, but from Crossfit (maybe from the Clean & Jerk (going fast and furiously).  

Going through Gymnastic bodies workouts, I didn't have the problem through HS/PE1, but through current HS/PE2, the mobility side of it.  I kept feeling the 'pinch' in the nerve of my left side of my shoulder doing the  Xiaopeng Forward, man was I frustrated.   Going through the forum to find solution, even to go through the Mastery of HS/PE2 (still in the process), I came across TUT (time under tension).  I thought about it and decided to start HS/PE2 all over again (realizing I cannot go TUT during endurance training).  During Block 1, I was able to go super slow @ 3 reps by 3 sets.  I realized that I was only able to do TUT throughout Block1, but when Block 2 came along (currently finishing deload week), I noticed that I had to accelerate a little bit after 6 reps and definately during 9 reps.  But let me tell you, there is no more 'pinch' in my nerve on the left side during the Mobility  Xiaopeng Forward.  

I am no doctor, nor am I a Personal Trainer (still working on that under ISSA due to 2 essays that's mandatory by the book (minor dissapointment when told that) (yet passing the multiple choice & true/false (which is other Certs have) just my luck to go through extra work (but I'm sure it's a personal test to see if I wish to be a PT in the long haul (under 'kingzLoFitness')).  

But as a guinea pig going through the process (personal testimony), I would take this chance over again whenever needed.  After all, in order to get good at anything, you have to go slow at first anyway.  Seems like the same goes for injuries.  So when your ready to go at, at the level where your at, go absolute beginner and go TUT.  I hope this helps. 

Thanks Kingzlo! Pardon my ignorance, but does TUT basically mean to go really slow during reps? If so, how slow?

Yes, TUT (time under tension) means going really slow.  Personally, I'd say "as slow as you can", both going up and down.  Some mention a few seconds up and a few seconds down; I didn't count the seconds as I was doing it, it was instinctive slow motion and feeling my body tense and active throughout.  Reminiscing doing kung fu, in order to get proper in movement, we had to go slow periodically in movements (with and without tension (more with)), and when the time came to going fast, it's not sloppy.  So keep proper form and tension throughout the movement. 

I'm even doing TUT with some of the core movements (V-Ups MN/PE3), to get the proper form, and the Mobility of SLS/PE2 (Twisting Squats), as I'm getting used to and stronger with that.  Some movements like that can't be helped but to go slowly at first anyway to get used to it.  

Reading over this forum, DEFINITELY take some time off, as Paf mentioned.  

When you start again, start off with Block 1 when you get back into your training for the push/pull.  When doing HBP/PE1, do the TUT, but I believe the Mobility (German Arm Swing) can be at the normal speed (review the video again).  Matter of fact review the RC/PE1 as well, and if you think your form may be sloppy, post a video form check.

I've had to seek out physio for shoulder problems I was having wtih rotator and supraspinatous issues. Personally I would say see physio if you have dealt with it for a while. Any physio I have had contat with never recomended not using the joint but instead recomended the appropriate mobility to keep blood flow to the joint and proper strength training for perserving the ROM of the joint. Unless the injury was tramuatic then total rest could be recomended. Even then (and I've had those too) some mobility was still recomended to enure the healing process didn't end up limiting the ROM of the joint. Plus unless you know exactly what is causing the pain its hard to know how to focus on recovery because every case is diff. For example it sounds like in your case you may have two diff injuries going on at the same time ie arm and neck pain.

If you listened to the F1 webinar Coach says if you have an injury then get it dealt with by a professional so that you can train properly. Frustrating to have to step back, absolutely, but as Coach said does it matter no.

I have regressed my PE's and focus on those that don't cause pain for now with mobility and stretch series, plus physio. Mark Collins is a physiotherapist here. might be worth dropping him a line to maybe ask his opinion since he also understands GST training. But I think he would say it doesn't replace hands on assessment by a professional.

Thanks for all the good suggestions. I'll wait a few days and if the pain does not go away I'll go see a physiotherapist. In the meanwhile, if somebody has a good recommendation for a physiotherapist in the San Jose/Silicon Valley area, please let me know through this thread or a PM.

Thanks again!

Just a last note, as I don't want to belabour the point. Remember that to strengthen ligaments takes months. Healing could take the same depending on the extent of injury or if it's a reoccurring type. a few days I don't think is an adequate rest time , but if you rest and it comes back quick then get help.

I recently did two and half weeks of no shoulder movements and focused on almost daily stretching and physio recommended exercises. Just did an F7 with HS. For the first time I kicked up for HSPE2 with almost no effort, and no pain. Shattered my previous best time without trying, I was shocked. Previous to my rest I struggled to get up let alone hold it for time. So apparently my body needed the extra rest and/or the rehab. I suffer from the more and more syndrome, hence my injuries, it was really hard to back off but it paid off today. So I too learned a lesson I hope to remember . Good luck with your recovery

" the pain is in the front of the shoulder and irradiates mainly down to the arm, but also a little but towards the neck"

I would recommend to check your infraspinatus, biceps and also upper trapezius for trigger points. If you (or maybe even better - someone else) apply pressure on them and they produce "referred pain" to those areas, where it usually hurts - spend some time on them (4-10 times a day) using cross fiber friction massage for some days or even weeks. You can find a lot of info about TP and how to deal with them (even as a auto-therapy) on the internet. 

My personal bet would be on TP in your infraspinatus :-)

Giovanni Garcea said:

Hi guys,

 

Or I should have started most of the elements at week 1 and work my volume up in a better progression...

 

Anyway, the pain is in the front of the shoulder and irradiates mainly down to the arm, but also a little but towards the neck. I can find, by touching, that the worst point of pain is the tendon, I believe.

 

Thanks!

I think we have all been guilty of trying to rush ahead. The fact you have pain in the shoulder is evidence of this. Most minor injuries settle quickly with 1-2 weeks of rest. Anti-inflammatories will usually help during this time. If your symptoms are not improving daily then it usually indicates a more significant injury that requires medical treatment.

If you are better after two weeks start at the beginning and progress when you can do each level pain free.

The thoracic bridge series is a big workout so make sure you do progress these exercises slowly. Especially the ones towards the end.

Lots of good advice already, and I am not a medical professional, but just my two cents of my own experience. I've got similar pain a few times and each time I have learned that it's not enough to rest. You also have to change your exercise regimen or it will come back time and time again, no matter how many times you take a few weeks off. You are probably going to far too fast on something and you need to scale down.

For instance, I got shoulder pain from pushing hard on increasing my lean in planche leans. It did not help to take some time off. What solved it was to scale back the lean and do a full 12 week cycle with no more lean than what fealt good, and start over with a bit more again with a bit more lean.

I am now starting my third time around from week 1, which is not fun, but these tissues grow at their pace and there is no way to force them. In my experience, patience and slow but steady progress beats trying to push the body too fast. My shoulders are pain free, and I am now close to mastery amount of lean.

Erik Rissanen said:

Lots of good advice already, and I am not a medical professional, but just my two cents of my own experience. I've got similar pain a few times and each time I have learned that it's not enough to rest. You also have to change your exercise regimen or it will come back time and time again, no matter how many times you take a few weeks off. You are probably going to far too fast on something and you need to scale down.

 

For instance, I got shoulder pain from pushing hard on increasing my lean in planche leans. It did not help to take some time off. What solved it was to scale back the lean and do a full 12 week cycle with no more lean than what fealt good, and start over with a bit more again with a bit more lean.

 

I am now starting my third time around from week 1, which is not fun, but these tissues grow at their pace and there is no way to force them. In my experience, patience and slow but steady progress beats trying to push the body too fast. My shoulders are pain free, and I am now close to mastery amount of lean.

Thanks! This is very helpful. I rested 2-3 weeks and the pain improved daily until I was almost pain free. This week I did a little bit of the TB stretch series, but only the exercise that felt ok and without pushing and some mobility. My plan for the upcoming week is to start the PE that involve the shoulders again, but back at week 1 and being extremely mindful of any pain. I will probably cntinue skipping the hinge rows and H1 work, until I'm a little more confident.

Incidentally, the are where I had the most pain feels ok now, but the areas around it (traps and biceps) are sore, not sure why. I'm sure there's a logical rason behind it.

I guess I was too optimistic. After carrying around my kids all afternoon yesterday, I woke up today and the shoulder pain is back, not as severe as 3-4 weeks ago, but definitely annoying.

I just emailed my doctor about it and I'll go through wathever they will tell me to do...

As I've mentioned before tendons take a long time to bounce back once the damage is done. Couple weeks won't cut it. I've been working on mine for a few months now with success but not cured yet. The bonus of this all is it forced me to slow down a lot and the added recovery has improved greatly other PEs I'm working on. Unexpected bonus as well. Its really hard to lay off when you feel like you losing valuable training time but won't mean diddlely squat if I keep re-injuring it.

This is actually where most of my son's pain is...

GenericGymnast said:

This is actually where most of my son's pain is...

I guess this type of injury is common enough. Anyway, I went to the Dr this afternoon. She checked the area and made me do a few movements with the arm to see which one would cause discomfort. In the end she said that most probably I have rotator cuff tendinitis. She gave me the choice of first trying back exercises from a basic booklet that she could give me or go straight to PT. I, of course, selected PT. She gave me a list of recommendations, so I have a little bit of Yelp search to do.

Any tips on how to gauge the thoroughness of a PT during the first assessment visit?

I'll keep this thread updated every once in a while, in case somebody else is in the same boat and he's interested in what the PT will make me do.

ask Mark Collins. I will respond when I have more time.

Rotator rehab I think is pretty standard. I would bet just about any properly trained PT could deal with it. But Mark could speak to what PEs you should lay off and what iMs can still do maybe? But I think as a rule there is caution when giving medical advice in this venue, so the responsibility is with you in the end.

In looking for a good Physio assessment:

1. You get at least 30 mins of one to one attention. The assessment should take up most of the half hour.

2. They check the upper limb for neural tension. If you have neural tension/compression the muscles and joints will not release.

3. They check the shoulder front and back, in the arm pit for subscapularis, cervical spine and thoracic spine.

4. They focus more on objective tests rather than symptoms.

5. If you get put on an electro therapy machine and they leave the room...sneak out the door and never go back.

6. Find someone who exercises themselves. It is better if they do some form of resistance training as they will understand your goals better.

Thank you Mark! This will help a lot.

Do you have any updates?

I'm a soft tissue therapist (remedial massage + a few other things) and have had 2 shoulder reconstructions, so shoulders are close to my heart

In the planche lean, keeping the elbows locked out means you're using the biceps - a lot. On me, the pain at the front of the shoulder is a small strain to the "long head of biceps" tendon - this is for the part of the biceps on the outer side of the upper arm. The tendon attaches to the top of the shoulder "socket", and this is where it will usually hurt if you overdo things.

The other element that I've found really smashes this area is the side over arch (SL/PE3) on the support arm. So, if you have a couple of Foundation elements that use this area, give yourself plenty of rest.

Hi Nick,

thanks for asking. My first PT visit is a couple of weeks away. The wait is due both to the fact that I selected an extremely popular and well regarded PT and to my very limited availability (with a full time job and two toddlers, I can commit pretty much only between 7AM and 8AM).

In the meanwhile I'm totally resting the shoulders, apart from normal life efforts. I'm only training FL/PE1, SPL/PE1>iM, SL/PE1>iM, SL/PE2>iM, MN/PE1, SLS/PE1 and SLS/PE1>iM. I'm also doing the front and middle split series, but not the thoracic bridge and some running.

The curious thing is that, even though I've been resting, my left shoulder is also developing some mild symptoms. In general, any movement that brings my arms above shoudler level causes a little pain.

I'm wondering if I was carrying on something already and the new training regime just made it flare up. I always had very tight shoulders and a hunched position since I was a kid. Also, the fact that my kids (2.5 and 1.5 years old) are getting heavier doesn't help  . I definitely feel more pain on Mondays after I spent the weekends carrying them around.

Anyway, I'm in no rush at all, at 40 years old my priority is protecting myself and ensuring that I can live a active lifestyle. I'm using the extra time trying to get some more sleep instead of the usual 5:45 hours and reading about the shoulder joint, that is both fascinating and scary.

Hi, I just want to upate this thread as I just had my PT assessment, finally.

After spending almost an hour assessing ROM, movement, comparing both shoulders, etc... here's what the PT thinks:

• The main affected tissues are Subclavius, Supraspinatus and the long head of the Bicep.
• My range of motion is good, in general, with the exception of the SC joint that is a little restricted on both sides.
• There is some clicking going on that seems evidence of some degenerative aspect tot he situation, but he thinks it is normal enough and we all have some of it (I'm 40, BTW).

Because the range of motion is generally ok, he thinks this shoulder impingement could have been prompted by the combination of a couple of things:

• I was doing too much 
• My shoulder have an evident posture issue. They tend to stay forward and come even more forward for every simple movement, even shaking hands, that is pretty typical for a computer guy. That means that I will need to re-educate the shoulders to be in a better position (down and back) and to move more properly.

We will get into the specifics of the therapy starting from the next visit on Monday, but for now he just wants me to do some simple foam roller stretching, ice the shoulder twice a day, and learn to "catch myself" when my shoulders go forward during normal daily activities. He even gave me some suggestion on I should carry my kids in a sligthly different way.

I feel I got a pretty good visit and a received a lot of information.

Hey Giovanni,

Hmn, I'm trying to think "How would I put this from "a fellow tech'" perspective?"  

Athough I've lifted weights for the longest.  As a fellow tech, I'm behind my computer as I wake up and I had a shoulder problem since I was a kid (fell down a steep flight of steps).  I posted, somewhere in here about my forward shoulders and the clicking it was making during 2nd level of pushups HS/PE2, the mobility side being "xiaopeng" (not much clicking going on since I started doing things in a slower manner to get the hang of the routines (think time under tension, meantioned earlier). 

I know I should be doing GST first thing as stated in the Podcast(s), but I was compelled to write at this time and think about my routine thus far (within my 2Do app on my mac), and I'm also here.  It's been over a year and I'm looking and feeling brand new.  I'm writing to see with further progressions (about to get into Handstands (HS/PE4) + included mobility (especially included mobility).  The HS program is a great program for helping with your shoulders, in due time.  I'm going warm up with this one doing HS/PE2 +3, I set each just to get ready.  It's like how a dude on his motorcycle, not too long ago, 'practicing on the streets', in a slow (in a form of control) like manner.  

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I'd say go absolute beginner with GST and stay on a 'concentrated manner', where there is no music and no distractions.  Do F4 + F3, at your own pace.  I'm 36 by the way and feeling like a baby, at times, learning to walk.  I see that, in others as well, as I started training them (focusing on certification(s)).

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Maybe the motocycle dude is cruising around to hear a character go beast mode in a minute.

Now I'm hungry so I got to eat and concentrate on the rest of my day before getting my workout in.  Started doing that this week, or actually yesterday, when I had to take in a banana and plenty of water.  It digested about half hour to hour; I'm not sure when I started working out afterwards (mind was elsewhere throughout the time of digestion).

Giovanni, your in the right place at the right time.  Your PT will be surprised with your progressions.  Keep this in mind, what you apply for yourself from GST, be careful with overtraining your body.  Seriously make sure your PT knows that your applying yourself with this form of training as well, so he can further assess with his form of training that you may have to apply upon yourself as well.  A past accident I had, I told my therapist about the situation and I just came for the deep tissue massages.  And in no time, I was seeing less and less of my PT.