Help with RCPE6

I've been struggling with RCPE6 (Bent Arm Chin Hangs) for a long time now - I think it's been at least six months.  I'm making progress on everything else, but can't seem to master RCPE6. 

About 6 weeks ago, I was up to getting 3 sets of 60s and then lesser times (~40s) on the following two sets.  Now I'm not even getting that far, I actually seem to have lost some strength on it.  I think part of the problem is that I've continued to progress elsewhere.  Now I'm doing sPL/SE1 and HBP/PE10 before I get to RC/PE6 and I think my arms/shoulders are shot before I even get started. 

I'm thinking of trying a couple of different options to try:
 

1) Take a step back on RC/PE6 and go back to the second microcycle (i.e. weeks 5-8).  Work the lighter cycle to let myself adjust to the increased strain from sPL/SE1 and HBP/PE10 before increasing the volume on RC/PE6

2) Change the order of my training.  Either do RC/PE6 before the other exercises, or on a different day so I'm not approaching it when I'm already taxed.

Has anyone else had a similar experience?  Any other tips or suggestions to try?  I'm getting really frustrated with this one. 

Thanks in advance for any help anyone can provide. 

I had the EXACT same issue you are describing. Stalled on last weeks.. 5x48s was ok.

But with 60s sets I couldnt complete more than 2 or 3, depending on my daily form.

I ended up skipping this progression. Now I am doing the last few SE's on the Rope with no problems whatsoever. I think stalling too long on this does not give you any benefits, it only negatively affects your pulling strength. Some people also dont have as much endurance muscle fibres in relation to the others and therefore have a harder time achieving this. The primary reason for this PE is elbow preperation anyway, so if you spent that much time on it, you should definietly be good.

I wont recommend doing what I did, but that is my personal experience.

Pretty sure I read it's ok to switch the order of exercises you do, so I would do the RC first.

Option 2 would be better.

RC/PE6 is about developing your tendons more than your muscle. Mastering the progression is worth all of the effort you put into it. 

i think there is a point where we need to realise that not everyone will fit this program well and spending a few more months on pe6 may indeed do good work for your tendons but by the time you have built up to that point put in 6 months on the exercise and then eventually built your way through all those different kinds of pull ups i think your tendons should be okay, depending on a lot of different factors.  we dont want to create dogma here and it sometimes seems like that is what happens.

 im not saying that in this specific circumstance it is okay to skip but people need to learn how their own bodies function and make the best call for it they can, while removing the ego and purely focusing on what is healthy and optimal for their body.

i spent much longer on pe6 and i felt weaker and my elbows did not feel any better for it by the time I moved on.  I know my body very well and pretty much every injury i have had has been due to an accident and there has only been a couple of them.

in no way am i saying it is okay for the op to move on but instead just be more analytically about your training and your body then choose what is healthiest for it not just what you want. 

I would say try the first option or Steady state cycle the exercise and you will get there sooner or later.

Thanks for the responses, everybody.  I think I'll stick with it for another 4-8 weeks and move on if I don't get through it.  I've definitely lost a lot of pulling strength and feel like this will get to be counterproductive at some point in time. 

David Lishego said:

Thanks for the responses, everybody.  I think I'll stick with it for another 4-8 weeks and move on if I don't get through it.  I've definitely lost a lot of pulling strength and feel like this will get to be counterproductive at some point in time. 

It is counter productive once you get to 5 sets of 60 seconds.

Before you even think of moving onto the next progression, realize your body is being given access to more of you muscle strength as your connective tissue becomes stronger. If you move on before attaining mastery your body will not have access to the same amount of muscular strength when compared to some who mastered rc/pe6.

RC/PE6 can be much harder and I wouldn't be surprised if there is something similar in the rings course.

You can always work on pull ups after your Foundation workout is finished. 

I have a question more about technique of chin hangs than anything else.

Are we supposed to tuck in the abs and point the toes? I'm assuming that the answer is a "yes" to both.

With toe pointing that's not a problem.  However, tucking in the abs is a little tricky for me, as it induces more fatigue – at least that what it feels like to me. 

~Atticus said:

I have a question more about technique of chin hangs than anything else.

 

Are we supposed to tuck in the abs and point the toes? I'm assuming that the answer is a "yes" to both.

 

With toe pointing that's not a problem.  However, tucking in the abs is a little tricky for me, as it induces more fatigue – at least that what it feels like to me. 

I don't think small variations in bodyline is a major issue with this drill. This is mainly about tenacity and endurance in the lats, biceps and forearms. But yes, the abs gets surprisingly fried doing this drill. I would alternate slightly between a hollow body position and an "chair position", that seemed to alleviate some of the nastiness.

I noticed that there is too much exaltation in training when people need to pass from one element to the following.

before saying that an element it is not for you, can you say "i can perform the previous element easily?". You will be surprised of how much the thin line between "complete it with fatigue" and "complete it while drinking a bottle of coke" gives you the remaining seconds on the last weeks of the template.

Some of my clients come to me saying "hey i'm in a stall point", the real problem is that they have never written down their results of the training. so they are "trying" to complete the 4x48 seconds since 9 weeks and they cannot success. after my suggestion about "write down your results" they found that from week to week they added 1 second in the last set, or the first one was easier then before. this is about a success. success it is not only "achieve a template", it has different forms. 1 second in the last sets should be interpreted as an increased energy economy in the previous set. you did not completed the assignment but you are closer than before. this is a success.

On the other way if the "easily" approach it is not enough , there are different strategies you can adopt. the best i've used is by trying to increase the TUT from session to session. i've seen to much people fall down after the last second. but you are forgiving one important thing, negative contraction is about 25% stronger than isometric hold, so also if you are exhausted you can lower down your body SLOWLY after the isometric failure. this will increase the time under tension. did you tried it?

Alessandro Mainente said:

I noticed that there is too much exaltation in training when people need to pass from one element to the following.

before saying that an element it is not for you, can you say "i can perform the previous element easily?". You will be surprised of how much the thin line between "complete it with fatigue" and "complete it while drinking a bottle of coke" gives you the remaining seconds on the last weeks of the template.

 

Some of my clients come to me saying "hey i'm in a stall point", the real problem is that they have never written down their results of the training. so they are "trying" to complete the 4x48 seconds since 9 weeks and they cannot success. after my suggestion about "write down your results" they found that from week to week they added 1 second in the last set, or the first one was easier then before. this is about a success. success it is not only "achieve a template", it has different forms. 1 second in the last sets should be interpreted as an increased energy economy in the previous set. you did not completed the assignment but you are closer than before. this is a success.

 

On the other way if the "easily" approach it is not enough , there are different strategies you can adopt. the best i've used is by trying to increase the TUT from session to session. i've seen to much people fall down after the last second. but you are forgiving one important thing, negative contraction is about 25% stronger than isometric hold, so also if you are exhausted you can lower down your body SLOWLY after the isometric failure. this will increase the time under tension. did you tried it?

Well said.

Listen to Alex, guys.  There is a reason he is personally a senior GB student and that his students in Italy are doing so well.  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Alessandro Mainente said:

 

On the other way if the "easily" approach it is not enough , there are different strategies you can adopt. the best i've used is by trying to increase the TUT from session to session. i've seen to much people fall down after the last second. but you are forgiving one important thing, negative contraction is about 25% stronger than isometric hold, so also if you are exhausted you can lower down your body SLOWLY after the isometric failure. this will increase the time under tension. did you tried it?

Thanks Alex. I'll try to use the negative contraction when my time's up, hopefully this will help me progress a little bit faster. I have been coming down a little bit slowly, but I'll even take it a little notch slower. 

Ravn: Thanks for the info. I'll try not to fret too much about body line issues.  Besides, my priority no. 1 on this element is injury prevention.

Alessandro, so should we train every each element until we can accomplish it like "complete it while drinkink a cola"?

I think that is tacit. personally a 5x5 is easily mastered when you can do : 5 5 5 5 7.

Well that makes the whole difference then.

Coach Sommer (or anyone of Coache's team), may I ask you if you demanded your own students to repeat a micro-cycle to achieve nearly effortlessly mastery or did you allow them to move on if element was mastered with a struggle? I assume that feeling fatigued at the very end of the last two sets but still having energy for another one even if that would be less in time/reps is not considered a struggle. But what about if you start fighting at, say, 10th or lower rep of 4th set while mastering 5x15 template (although able to get through all sets and reps with a proper form)?

I would like to hear an answer to that too.

In this month newsletter mastery was defined as " the point where the body has sufficiently adapted to an exercise so it can be repeated with perfect technique over multiple work sets", which implies that you should perform the exercise with PERFECT form to the very last rep. To my understanding this means that you should be able to do an additional one or two reps (those would be grinders though), since if you collapse after your last rep it's highly probable that the same last rep was not that good at all

I will take a stab at this one, since I've seen Coach's opinion on this question more than a few times.

Foundation 1, which I'm assuming most people are still tackling, is, save for a few exceptions, essentially about building your connective tissue strength and mobility to prepare you for more advanced exercises to follow.

So if you are testing for mastery for a preparatory element that you haven't yet done, say you're moving from FL/PE2 to FL/PE3, then it would be a good idea to show true mastery, i.e., to use Alex's words, "like drinking a bottle of coke" because that means you're going to forgo training that element and forgo getting all the connective tissue adjustments which that element will help you build.

In other words, it will show that you're ready to leapfrog it and move onto a more advanced element.

On the other hand, if you've been working on an element for about 9-12 months, say, and you feel you can demonstrate mastery, albeit with a final set that isn't as pretty (though with correct form) then it becomes a question of time management.

Does it make sense to spend another 4-5 months "perfecting" your form on the last set, or does it make more sense to move on to another element, because at least you have fulfilled the objective of adapting your connective tissue to the element?

I'll use an example of mine: I mastered deck squats a long while ago, but I've continued to hone my skill on this element and I can now do it a lot more efficiently because of constant practice.  Sure if I had spent 3 more months doing deck squats, I might have gotten better at it, but there were more important things to do then, like twisting squats, if you follow me?

So you have to use your best judgment of whether you believe your connective tissue has adapted to that element, because more advanced elements later on will be so demanding on your joints and connective tissue that if you're not well adapted, you'll be guaranteed of sustaining an injury.

Hope this helps.

What Alex is saying above is something I've come to realize only in the last few months and wish I had understood at the outset.  I used to measure success solely by where I was in the mastery template.  Now I have come to view success to include the many refinements that are mentioned in these forums.  Before I was in a hurry to work through the templates and predictably stalled on later preparatory elements.  Now, having broadened my definition of success, I am more self-critical (video has been key here) and willing to repeat cycles until I can complete an element "while drinking a bottle of coke," to borrow Alex's phrase.  Lately, it has been inspiring for me to watch the Facebook videos of Coach's senior students performing Foundation One elements with such focus and virtuosity.

Vytautas Pilkauskas said:

Well that makes the whole difference then.

 

Coach Sommer (or anyone of Coache's team), may I ask you if you demanded your own students to repeat a micro-cycle to achieve nearly effortlessly mastery or did you allow them to move on if element was mastered with a struggle? I assume that feeling fatigued at the very end of the last two sets but still having energy for another one even if that would be less in time/reps is not considered a struggle. But what about if you start fighting at, say, 10th or lower rep of 4th set while mastering 5x15 template (although able to get through all sets and reps with a proper form)?

I used the same concept of the mastery while drinking for every micro cycle. can i pass from 4x2 to 4x3? yes if i can do one more rep at the end of last set of 4x2.

Alessandro Mainente said:

I used the same concept of the mastery while drinking for every micro cycle. can i pass from 4x2 to 4x3? yes if i can do one more rep at the end of last set of 4x2.

interesting tool. good thing to know since PE6 is right around the corner for me..

Garrick Sevilla said:

I used to measure success solely by where I was in the mastery template.

This is where I was pretty much until this day, reading this tread.

Alessandro Mainente said:

I used the same concept of the mastery while drinking for every micro cycle. can i pass from 4x2 to 4x3? yes if i can do one more rep at the end of last set of 4x2.

Even more interesting. Thank you very much, Alessandro, I will now apply this approach to my training.

Alessandro Mainente said:

I used the same concept of the mastery while drinking for every micro cycle. can i pass from 4x2 to 4x3? yes if i can do one more rep at the end of last set of 4x2.

Very interesting. Can you write an article on that for the wiki?

My heuristic for mastery is this one. First 3 sets you shouldn't even feel tired. Fourth one it you can start feeling it by the end of the set. Fifth one can be a struggle but as long as you maintain good form and finish it you can call it mastery. Atleast for me I know that if by second set it's starting to be tiring, mastery ain't gonna happen.

Alessandro Mainente said:

I used the same concept of the mastery while drinking for every micro cycle. can i pass from 4x2 to 4x3? yes if i can do one more rep at the end of last set of 4x2.

I'm mid-way through RC/PE6, as I hit mastery of 5x30 secs last Friday. I'm following Alex's template for mastery to the letter, and Zach's recommendation of doing 1/2 reps and 1/2 sets on off days.  

Hope to hit mastery in about 10 weeks time from today.