At a Crossroads - When to Call it Quits and Move On?

Hi Everyone,

 

I'm looking for some motivation to continue on my current path. I am really at a crossroads in my training right now. I have been following the Foundation series for two years now (+ 2 years BtGB) and I am becoming extremely frustrated. My progress on most elements has ground to a halt or is excruciatingly slow and I have lost significant general strength from my barbell training days, along with a loss in muscular body weight and a general feeling that I am less robust than I was back then.

 

Most of the elements that I have mastered have increased my skill in those movements but haven't actually increased my general strength. For example, I can now do all the Foundation dip variations to mastery, but my weighted dip strength has decreased significantly. When I was training with weights I could perform 5x5 negative HeSPUs against the wall, now I struggle with 3x2. I guess what I'm saying is that when I was weight training, with some specific skills practice I could likely do all the things I can do now having spent 2 years on F series, and I was stronger in general.

 

At present I am deciding whether to persevere with another year of Foundation to see how I go and whether it takes me past my previous best from when I was training with weights, or just call it a day now and move back to weights, perhaps with some limited GST skills added on top. I love the idea of being able to perform the skills in Foundation and I love the logic of the programme and the community here, but I'm not sure I can devote any more time to this path without a better return on time invested - I'm not getting any younger!

 

I apologise if the above sounds overly negative, but I am nearing my wits' end! All advice welcome.

 

Thanks in advance,

N

Can you provide more information please? What exactly has your progress looked like for the past two years? Exactly where are you in the program now? Where did you start? Has anything in particular been a struggle for you? Have you been diligent about testing every element and mastering both the mobility and PE? Do you video tape yourself to make sure your form matches up to the course standards? Do you have any injuries you're recovering from? Which elements have you plateaued on? Have you been doing any strength maintenance work with weights? How many times per week do you work each element?

In terms of more general advice: think about the standards you're using to evaluate your progress. The course works on many aspects of GST, and maximal strength is relatively low on the priority list. Other priorities include mobility, joint and tendon prep, developing work capacity, developing technique, developing skills, and shoring up weak spots. You say your negative HeSPU reps have dropped significantly: is your form still the same? 3x2x10s of good HeSPU (back hollow, elbows in) is an improvement over 5x5 poor HeSPU (back arched, elbows flared out).

Hi Josh,

 

Thanks for your quick response.

 

I started from the very beginning in all elements. Progress was steady until I hit my existing strength limits, which I had acquired from lifting weights. Straight arm elements have shown the slowest progress, e.g. I spent the best part of 9 months on sPL PE5 and sPL PE6 to ensure that I had mastered them and I am still nowhere close to achieving a tuck planche. I have regressed somewhat on these elements now that I have not been training them with as much volume since moving on to sPL SE1 and sPL SE2. I have been stuck at 3x2 reps on HBP PE16 for 3 months. I have progressed from 3x1 reps to 4x2 reps on RC PE16 since September although I often regress on this element from workout to workout (I am performing these from an L-sit due to roof height limitations). I am on a 3 day schedule, down from 4 days when I started.

 

I video myself regularly during workouts and monitor form as best I can, although it is sometimes difficult due to the angle in the course videos.

 

I have a shoulder injury from which I am recovering which developed during windshield wipers, but generally doesn't affect my current Foundation workouts, although I have to be careful to warm it up thoroughly.

 

I haven't done any weighted work since beginning Foundation, other than recently testing my maxes on overhead presses, weighted chins and weighted dips.

 

I think I am perhaps jumping the gun here: maybe I should just re-introduce some weighted work in order to overcome these plateaus: battering away at the same element month after month doesn't seem to be working?

 

Thanks again,

N

First, it sounds like strength with weights is an important thing for you. So one thing I'd recommend adding, if possible, is some maintenance work. Once or twice a week, do 1-2 sets at ~1/2 max volume, for the lifts you want to maintain. This will help keep up your strength.

 

Now, with regards to plateauing: if you've been in exactly the same spot for 3+ months, it's definitely time to change things up. First, I'd make a post for each element where you're struggling and ask for help; include videos of yourself performing (or attempting to perform) the element and the 2-3 elements preceding it. You want to be sure that you're executing the movements right; sometimes stalled progress can come from little tweaks that make an element much different. [i spent WAY too long on HS/PE2>iM because I was attempting to do the movement with maximal retraction and wasn't getting anywherre.] 

 

I'd also look into playing around with volume. Maybe a little more or a little less than you are now. Greasing the groove can sometimes help, too. 

Josh,

A logical reply as always.

I will proceed with your suggestions and see how I get on.

Cheers,

N

Neil,

I don't think your situation is very unique, as you described nearly the identical situation I've experienced and sometimes struggle with. I too performed the BtGB program nearly from the beginning upon its release and immediately purchased the F series when they became available. As you described, I had previously built up a decent amount of strength from weight training, and have at times become dismayed when randomly performing an exercise from my past only to discover I'm substantially weaker in that exercise than I was at my peak (standing overhead press, weighed parallel bar dips, weighted chin ups, etc).

However, what frustrates me more than losing 25% of a 3 rep max in something is getting, what seems at times as hopelessly stuck on an F series exercise. SPL/SE3 is one that owns me at the moment. I solidly mastered advanced frog stand and my leans look solid on video, but I can't lift my hips to shoulder level for a damn second without them starting to drop. It's infuriating, especially upon reading some of the news letters and reading about seminars where people seem to experience accelerated gains from in-person hands on learning. For some of us that just isn't possible (a newborn, two year old toddler, demanding job and very few opportunities considering seminars are few and VERY far between distance wise).

A while back there was a post on a forum with someone (hell, may have even been me) commenting on how they wish there was more teaching-focused information in the course materials itself rather than one or two lines with some focus points and a quick video. The answer was that that is what the forums are for, to talk about and learn the subtle details of each movement which can help someone focus on the proper things, especially when some of these movements are initially foreign to those of us without a gymnastics background. But I've found it tough to weed through the forums, the search function sometimes confuses the hell out of me regrading what's pulled up for certain terms, and if the forum is what's supposed to really supplement the material in the course, to really expand on each movement and break things down so a person can approach a new exercise with confidence knowing what should be the focal points of the movement, I wish it was organized more efficiently. Perhaps having a heading for each exercise and it's integrated mobility?

Wow. I'm really ranting here. Haha... For those of us who've really invested the last couple of years following as best we can the F series, so much goes into it and I know for myself I want so badly to be successful that plateaus and regressions and just being stumped with some exercises seems to hit harder than running into a plateau during a bench press cycle, etc.

With all of this said, I actually love this style of training and am very passionate about working hard to succeed, I think the frustration comes in with thinking that sometimes just following the course and reading the forum that one is at a severe disadvantage vs someone receiving hands on training, even if it's just a two day seminar. And perhaps that's just tough luck for those of us who don't have the means to partake in a seminar. Being able to purchase a video taped seminar might be something greatly beneficial to a lot of us.

Anyway, just thought I'd chime in and let you know you're not alone. And much of this is probably also a result of today's workout with ever sinking hips in the cursed tuck PL...

Listen to the F1 Podcast with Coach and wait for his story about the monte cristo and plateuing.

 

I think if you hit a plateu you just have to keep working. You will still improve, even though you may not notice it. And then some day you'll look back and think: holy shit, look how far I have come!

 

Also Neil, how often are you training? I noticed huge improvements from training less.

Killroy, JN12,

 

Thanks for your replies. I train 3 days per week, down from 4 days per week when I first started Foundation.

 

Having slept on it, I think my post was perhaps a bit of an over-reaction because of my ongoing frustrations. I still think the Foundation progressions and how the courses tie together are really a thing of genius, although a lack of hands-on coaching and spotting is obviously a major disadvantage. There isn't a lot that Coach can do about that: seminars are provided and it is our responsibility to attend as our circumstances allow. We shouldn't forget that the Foundation courses offer outstanding value for money as well. Even without direct coaching, where else in the world can you get progressions developed by a high level gymnastics coach for a few hundred dollars? Coach is one of a only a handful of people in the world qualified to teach this stuff and should expect to be paid accordingly. He owes us nothing!

 

That said, I think the generic advice given on these forums when people reach plateaus is lacking, i.e. "work harder" or "just keep repeating cycles". A lot of people, myself included, who are stuck are lifelong athletes and know what hard work is. Repeating cycles, in my experience, has been inefficient or ineffective in many cases. Typically, if I were training with weights and hit a plateau, I would adjust volume, intensity and perhaps add assistance exercises. There is very little solid advice on such measures to be found on these forums. I also agree that more cues and/or voiceover commentary on the course videos would have been very useful. Multiple video angles definitely should have been included too, a la H2. Perhaps in future editions/upgrades?

 

Joshua,

 

In further response to your advice above, strength with weights is not necessarily overly-important to me, but strength in general is and being able to develop it using awesome-looking bodyweight skills would be an added bonus! My concern is that I am not getting stronger, rather I am just learning new skills that I could have achieved regardless with practice had I continued to progress with barbell training. Joshua Naterman has been making this case recently on the Reddit bodyweight forums, making some strong claims as to the large number of reasonably difficult (i.e. F4 level) bodyweight strength movements that he was able to complete from weight training alone, prior to engaging in serious GST. Just don't want to go down any dead ends - time and progress are precious!

 

Thanks to all again for your input,

N

It is a tough question, Neil.

 

Sometimes the best action is to just hold the course - I'm currently doing this with MN/pe6, because I AM getting better, although extremely slowly.

 

Other times, modifications must be made. With tuck planche, I found the first progressions relatively easy, but bumped against a hard stop plateau at 4x 24 for months. Now I am doing the tuck planche and the bent arm planche iM with ankle weights, to simply get stronger in the position. I've found that if I remove the ankle weights, I can hold for roughly 50% more time, so I figure that If I eventually reach 4x24s with ankle weights, I should be relatively close to mastery without them. 

 

So for me, tuck planche for longer durations is definitely a huge block for me, but on the other hand, the exercise is slowly maiking me stronger in the straddle planche leans that I do for warmup, to the extend that I think I might be getting a 2 second straddle planche hold within 6 months at the rate things are going now, and STILL be stuck on tuck planche. Progress is progress.

Darn, go back and fix any strength deficiencies your body may still have.

 

Your connective tissue, rotator cuff muscles, and other supportive muscle groups all need to be worked on continually as your larger muscles groups continue to be strengthened.

 

Slow progress is still progress.

 

Here are some things you need to keep working despite your current progress through the entire foundation course.
 

Previous thread: List of exercises that should be improved after mastery.

IMO, if you've lost the excitement in training foundation, take a break.

 

Break away for a few weeks and train some old school stuff that used to be fun. Then come back to Foundation.