Counter-indicated programming?

Gymnastics has been a preferred modality for strength and flexibility training after I stopped weightlifting.  However, I'm under the impression that the the Foundations and Ring series are considered too rigorous to be used in conjunction with other, extraordinarily demanding sports.  

 

I am a stickler for building good technique in whatever sport I'm doing, and am not interested in knocking out zillions of kipping muscle-ups or pushing beyond my current technical level.  I also wanted to be sure that I addressed any deficiencies that I have; that's what brought me back here.

 

Since I had already been training on the rings for years, I thought it would probably be all right to start the R1 course after F2 and progress slowly through it as I finished the foundation series, then see how far in the Ring series I got from there (I don't know the exact content, so I cannot speculate).  I don't  know where, or if the p-bars, which I also train, would fit in with this program, but what I've done so far has transferred well to water sports.  The Handstand series would definitely be useful in conjunction with p-bars, I'm sure.  As to p-bars and pommel horse, I've simply added new skills when I felt comfortable with the old ones, and they have tended to progress along the standard levels that the kids follow.  

 

Since I don't know the content of the courses before enrolling (though I have a basic idea), I don't know how long it would take for me to progress through each level or if I might get stuck on something along the way.  I had simply planned to buy the first course in the series, then the next, etc while continuing some of the basic things that I've already been doing for a while.  Granted... it is very hard to plan the strength portion of a training program without knowing exactly what comes next in the series, but I'm about ready to start programming for winter in ten-day cycles in 8-10 week blocks designed to peak for certain races:

 

Here is my main concern:

 

My strength training volume must be well-matched to my sport practice in order to avoid overtraining, and it may simply be that this series cannot be implemented within this framework.  

 

What I failed to say before is that the "progressions" - and I mean the ones for ALL the sports - must make sense WHEN TAKEN TOGETHER.  Preparation for races requires a steady progression through increasing speed and distance loads in "steady state", "interval training," etc.  This is not soliciting a "gymnastics" routine critique, but as an example, it may not work so well to program any part of a planche progression on the same day after doing 10 x 500 meter kayak sprints.  Might be a bad plan.  

 

So, before I begin, I need to know if this level of gymnastics training will be too difficult to incorporate into an already ambitious program or can it be scaled in such a way to fit (without changing the structure of the technique progressions themselves).

Is there a question there, or are you looking for general responses and impressions?

If it helps, I found that an F2 standard for me at least was unquestionably insufficient preparation to train R1 as a strength program. I went from rapid progress to breaking even on training stress/recovery each week, and I slowed down across the board. For reference I have finished most of the foundation series bar planche manna and fl.

Granted you might be in much better shape than myself; even so my personal advice is to complete F4 before worrying about rings. And that's really no exaggeration; the real benefits are there only with adequate preparation, and Coach has always promoted Foundation graduation as the correct standard for that.

Happy to answer further questions on integrating the GST with skill training; specifically for gymnastics there are others here who are very knowledgeable

Dear Jon Douglas.  

 

I think I was adding something to the post to clarify my dilemma while you were still answering.  Apparently my first pass got taken down because it probably sounded like I was going to plan my own gymnastics progressions.  If I could do that already, I wouldn't need a program

 

I currently use the rings mostly for pullups, dips, support holds, and L-sits. nothing terribly technical. The advantage is that they give more degrees of freedom than a straight bar - nice for the elbows and wrists.  I do use high bar for pullovers and such, and since I do train at a gymnastics school, I have access to the ring pulley machine:  I do like to play around on it.  For a while I was training p-bars extensively and very basic pommel horse as well. Balance beam helps with... well balance, and I even use it too! 

 

The Specific Questions:

 

1) If I pursue this program, should stop the above mentioned ring exercises?  They seem very basic to me.

2) What would be suggested for continuation of p-bars and/or pommel horse at this time? 

3) What is the minimum - maximum range of days per week to make consistent progress with this program?

(As to when in the series I begin R1 is not of grave importance.  I think a lot will depend on how easy or difficult F1 and F2 are for me.  If they prove difficult, then I would probably wait until after F3, F4, or even after H1. 

4) Finally, I'm seeking advice as to how I might incorporate this program into my current rowing/kayaking training program.  There is a possibility that it may not work. 

 

Off topic: what the heck is that  ?

Kay-o.

1)

The exercises you mention are basic. In Coach's courses they all make appearances at a low level of training. Straight arm elements on the rrings done as actual training elements are saved for rings courses-- this is simply due as I mentioned to requiring that basis to get the most out of them. No doubt you are benefitting now, but I can state from experience that you are not getting their full benefit until you are conditioned properly. Therefore they're relegated until that conditioning has been established by the timeline of the course structure. No reason you can't do them before they make an appearance, they just should not fall in your structured programming until then. If you do, you are deviating and wasting coach's experience (in which case why bother paying for courses? )

2) I'll leave technical gymnastics questions to those with more experience, but as a rule of thumb simply separate your stength+/conditioning and skill work. Train them appropriately and distinctly.

3)

I have in the past made the best gains on four days a week. Right now I'm doing less than that-- maybe 3* a fortnight, and still making gains despite currently being in a demanding position physically. There is leeway to train 1-6 * a week or doubling up on days if ypu are quite conditioned.

4) Post a broad outline of your training; we have some racers and endurance athletes around who may well be able to help

5)

Not ideal but not a problem. Some exercises will obviously be off limits for the duration and you will need to double up on shoulder mobility to keep up with your strength gains, but you will certainly be able to progress through almost all of foundation level training before this becomes a problem

Hope that is a start

Ps-- the easter egg is a forum thing, still running I guess. Nigel knows the most I think

By the way,

No course content or questions on structuring your strength training sessions will be discussed outside the private course forums. I truly believe giving advice other than working through the foundation courses is giving sub par advice on strength training but that's of course my opinion. Good luck with training

That's the general kind of stuff I was looking to find out, thanks.  

As I say, I'm not in a rush to get to any particular "level" of the course by a certain time or permute the order to try and move ahead faster.

 

For any gymnasts who want to chime in, I do basic stuff on those other apparatuses, generally following the kids' programs progressions.

 

On the last point, not to worry, I'm not planning to repost any of the course content in a public venue. 

Glad to help

As an endurance athlete I would state my experiences over the past 18 months. I find I can train GST and make great progress during base building and volume periods of training. During this time I will strength train 3-4 x per week. During intensity periods my recovery is not adequate with full time job and family duties. So I decrease to 1-2 x weekly which gives me slower progress, but I do not lose ground. I tend to follow slightly different programming than the course due to these issues. For my cross country ski training I train heavily through summer as general conditioning. I follow the GB protocol. This also accounts for the max strength training in the early fall, when I will change exercises that are at high reps to low rep variations with worse leverage or will add weight to make them max strength focused. Then for complex strength period (pre comp) I will do more sport specific strength training and power/plyo metric work. Finally during competition I will relegate to once weekly GST for maintenance and once weekly specific strength. I think it is a big error to minimize all strength training during competition as the strength losses under that hormonal milieu are tremendous. Then in spring I get back to straight general strength again which is mostly GST with additional weighted leg work. Hope that is helpful to you. I would suspect cross country ski training and kayak training are similar for the upper body.

Thanks MT Nordic,  

 

I made the mistake this summer of not ramping down strength training (4-5x week) soon enough during the early season and had some issues with tendonitis.  I reduced strength to 2 x week through the summer, centered around a select set of movements.  It took a few weeks of tweaking to get the balance right, and I do not want to make that same mistake again.  Starting GB, I've elected to follow the 3x times a week program.  Through the winter, a lot of on-the-water training will be technique work, longer distance or steady state, with some sprint/interval work done on the ergometer.  In addition, I generally have 1 "gymnastics-centric" session a week where I also work on a few apparatuses  (I was never a gymnast in my youth) and 1 Pilates/Gyrotonic session (it tends to be gentle, high-rep under moderate tension, but also addresses some movement issues).  If hat becomes too much, I may adjust GB to 2 x/week, or cut Pilates for a while.  Depending on training load, I  may alternate weeks doing GB 2x and 3x/week. For now, I'd like to do it at least 3x to get the most benefit from it.  In the summer, I'll plan to drop back again.