Cut fat now or later (advice needed)?! (pics)

[Max Boehm]

Good evening GymnasticBodies community.

 

For the ones who are not keen to read the whole post:

Am I too fat to train gymnastics skills? Loose fat first or keep training the way I train?

 

I just started gymnastics training and achieved a few skills so far (20 second L Sit, 6xL-Sit ring pull-up (false grip), 10 seconds tuck planche, 8xWall handstand push up, 8xRing dips, Crow stand to handstand...).

Since I am not that advanced yet i wanted to know whether I should shed off some fat or keep on gaining some strength.

I am in that spot where my top 2 Abs are visible sitting at about 15 percent bodyfat. My current weight is 146 lbs and I my height is 5´8". My fat sits on my stomach and on my waist. My arms are 12 inches (dont know if this info is needed) and are very tiny in relation to the rest of my body.

My major goal is achieving more and more skills (like the planche and muscle ups, you name them...). Looking good is not supposed to be a goal, it should be more like a byproduct of my training. I read something about bodybuilders doing cutting and bulking. Do you reccomend some routine like that in order to get stronger? Or would cutting of the body fat now and trying to gain the least amount of fat possible be a better idea?

I am currently consuming roughly about 3000 calories per day (tracked my calories for 3 months and 3000 was the avarage). I am gaining about 250 grams per week and my strength increases every training. I need about 2700-2800 calories per day (measured with a calorie tracking armband). My diet consists of potatoes, rice, meat, milk products, fruit and veggies only.

Will dieting now make me weaker or will it improve my performace? I am aware that no one can give me a save answer, however some of you might be able to give me some advice.

And yes, It´s a Gyno!

 

 

Thank you so much!

Cheers

Max

 

[Julian Aldag]

Short answer:  Keep training and eating well.  If you're doing it right, the body will change favorably.

 

Long answer:  Skill will become easier as you lose weight (BF), and will take some stress off the joints etc.  3000cal? That seems like a lot!

Why are you aiming for that? what calorie tracking armband are you using?  My instinct is to tell you to throw it out the window.

Although I don't believe in the exact science of calorie = a calorie, bodybuilders have been using calorie counting for ages with great results.  There are a few different calculations you can use (and I would be happy for anyone to chime in with more experience than me), but maintenance calories is about 14 to 16xBW(lbs).  Which would mean you are somewhere between 2050 - 2350.  Maybe try dropping down to 2500 for a few weeks and see what happens?

[Max Boehm]

Thank you for the quick reply jules!

 

The armband I was using is called sensewear/Bodymedia link. It is the most accurate calorie tracking device on the market.

I know a daily expediture of 2700-2800 sounds like a lot, however I am highly active (walking every distance within 3 miles, using my bike quite often, walking roughly 15000 steps a day (the Calorie armband tracked my steps too) due to my job as a shop assistant, doing household work, working out 6 times per week and so on...) and have a very fast metabolism.

2500 would be way below my caloric needs to maintain my weight. I considered going that long before, but I still dont know whether the caloric deficit will hinder my skill developement?!

I am aiming for a slight caloric surplus in order to have the energy I need to get stronger.  I read the same in various bodybuilding and strength training forums. I am just not sure whether this kind of science applies for gymnastic skill and strength too?!

I could not figure out what your advice is? Should I keep a caloric surplus (2500 > 2050-2350 -> surplus) or lower my calories to cut some fat and take stress of my joints?

 

Thank you guys in advance!

Cheers

Max

Edited August 10, 2014 by RingMax

[Julian Aldag]

I didn't realise you were so active. My recommendations were to maintain weight for someone with moderate activity level.

I don't have a lot of experience, but I know it is possible to increase muscle and lose fat at the same time. We have a new fancy machine at work that measures BF% and muscle mass. Last month I dropped 3lbs of BF and gained a 1lb of muscle while on a calorie deficit.

 

If you are tracking your calories every day, then why not experiment on yourself by cutting your current calories by 10% every few weeks?  You can keep track of your energy levels and maybe eat more on workout days and less on off days.  There is no panacea, try something for a month and see how you feel. If your workouts are suffering, either eat more, or rearrange your calories (workout vs rest day).

 

But like I said, i'm relatively new to counting calories for cutting weight, but so far I just concentrate on fueling for performance, and the weight loss seems to be taking care of itself

 

Hope that helps.

[Julian Aldag]

Also strength increases are not only due to increase in muscle size, but there is also a neural component. You will get stronger as the body learns how to fire more of the existing muscles fibers making the contractions more efficient.  More (bigger) muscle size usually means more strength, but you can also increase muscle strength without getting bigger.

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

I wouldn't worry too much about it. Excess fat = excess bodyweight = harder work. But you don't seem very fat imo and your strength seems good for a beginner as well. Body composition will even out if you eat healthy food, i.e. you will lose fat and gain muscle. But you won't really need a caloric surplus - like Jules says, neural adaptation is a big component of strength (perhaps the biggest?). If your goal is to add mass, you will probably do better with a slight surplus. Your neural adaptations won't be much affected by a couple of hundred calories in either direction. If you eat below your maintenance for a long time however, you might suffer some on your strength. You will fatigue quicker and strength increase might come slower. On the other hand, as you drop bodyweight, your exercises will become a little bit easier since the effort will become less (provided it is fat your are losing and not muscle).

So all in all, pros and cons to gaining and losing weight.
For pure strength purposes - it won't matter much though. As long as you don't lose muscle or gain fat.
So I'd go with maintenance or a slight increase if you are looking to gain muscle, or a slight decrease if losing fat is more important to you - besides the strength.
I believe the quality of the food will be more important than exact quantities. It will help you recompose (lose fat and gain muscle) so you get a better strength to weight ratio, which is more important than just mass in GST.

[Max Boehm]

Your posts were very helpfull and I think I will try this approach:

I will cut my calorie intake to maintenance and watch my progress. After one or two weeks I will try to decrease my caloric intake by 10 percent every few weeks until I stop making strength gains and my skills wont improve anymore.

I got one question left?!

@ jules: Did you really gain muscle while on a caloric deficit?

Thank you guys for your help!

It is much appreciated!

Cheers

Max

Edited August 10, 2014 by RingMax

[Julian Aldag]

I sure did. Thats what the machine said. It measures BF in Lbs + %, lean body mass, and also muscle distribution.  That 1lb of muscle went straight to my arms     I'm not sure if it makes a difference, but I always ate the biggest meal (protein and carb heavy) after my workouts. 

 

Don't obsess about it.  Cut the calories a bit and see what happens, if you workouts become more difficult, or you take longer to recover, you are probably eating too little.  Also just as a side note: im probably going to keep doing what im doing for another month, and then eat back at my maintenance for a few months.  Staying in calorie deficit for too long isn't great to the body and can lead to malnutrition etc.

 

Let us know how it goes.

[Daniel Burnham]

Your posts were very helpfull and I think I will try this approach:

I will cut my calorie intake to maintenance and watch my progress. After one or two weeks I will try to decrease my caloric intake by 10 percent every few weeks until I stop making strength gains and my skills wont improve anymore.

I got one question left?!

@ jules: Did you really gain muscle while on a caloric deficit?

My coachs and nutritionists during my time as a Rugby player ALWAYS stated that gaining muscle and loosing fat is impossible.

Thank you guys for your help!

It is much appreciated!

Cheers

Max

This is possible especially when you have a great deal of excess bodyfat. It is likely that most people are eating too much in excess and cut back to a reasonable level. Then they start building muscle and having more activity which starts takes away body fat.

[Julian Aldag]

^ Totally makes sense. I'm just getting back into training. I've got a few extra pounds to lose and still getting my base strength back. I'm sure the lower the body fat gets, the hard it is to do both at the same time.

[Daniel Burnham]

^ Totally makes sense. I'm just getting back into training. I've got a few extra pounds to lose and still getting my base strength back. I'm sure the lower the body fat gets, the hard it is to do both at the same time.

Yea. Also returning to a place you've already been helps. Muscle comes back much easier when you have developed it previously.

Definitely not impossible to do even with low bodyfat but a much slower process that requires a bit more fine tuning.

Also muscle is the best fat burner. The more you have the higher resting metabolic rate you have. And at rest your body uses mostly fat.

[Julian Aldag]

Well I'm not yet low enough to worry about that.  Michelangelo's David wasn't sculpted in a day

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Recomposition (gaining muscle and losing fat simultaneously) is possible, but slow, yeah.
The key is to have a clean diet.

Nutrition is not a 1+1 numbers game based only on calories in vs calories out. That is why it is possible.

The kind of food you eat influences your body's hormonal response and this response is what drives fat burning and muscle growth. A "clean diet" means you are not constantly going around with an elevated insulin level or cortisol level for that matter (i.e. eat sugars all day and stress all day). It doesn't necessarily mean low-carb, because fats, carbs and proteins should all have a part in your diet. But it means avoiding foods heavy in both carbohydrates and fats, like ice cream and french fries. The time around your training - before and after, is a good place to eat more carbohydrates - as the body will be stimulated to put the energy into muscle cells as glycogen instead of fat cells as fat.

Not only recomposition gets harder at a lower level of body fat - getting rid of more body fat even at the expense of muscle mass, gets harder. The body wants to stay in homeostasis, the processes wants to balance. It's chemistry, it's an equation. If you push the body, it will push back. It doesn't want to be pushed into an extreme. I believe it is easier to change this homeostatic set point if you spend more time doing it, gently losing weight, gaining weight or recomposing - until the body has had time to adapt around that change and adopt the status you have imposed, as the new set point around which it balances.

[Max Boehm]

Wow, I did not expact to get that much feedback!

This is my first thread in the gymnasticbodies forum and I enjoy being a part of the community already!

You guys convinced me that body recomposition is possible. I will give it a shot and will watch my progress.

I changed my diet "regime" very often in order to support my sporting goals. The following gives me the best results energywise:

Most days I train fasted early in the morning. If I do not train within 1 1/2 hours I will consume proteins and fats. Post workout I will get in some proteins and carbs (mostly a whey shake and a tablespoon of honey). As soon as I get hungry I will consume proteins and carbs. In the afternoon I focus on good fats (small amounts), carbs and proteins. In the evening I will eat a huge carb + protein meal to have enough energy for my morning workout.

My main food sources are meat, veggies, rice, nuts, fish, dairy (mostly goats dairy), potatoes, yams, honey, olive oil, cocounut oil and fruits. I do not eat fast food at all! Once a week I eat a small cup of ice cream in the afternoon.

That´s pretty much it!

I do not know the exact amount of proteins, carbs and fats I eat. I assume I consume about 50-70 grams of fat and 100-150 grams of protein per day.

Will this diet support the body recomposition?

Thanks a lot!

Max

[Julian Aldag]

Will this diet support the body recomposition?

No idea. Don't think about it so much. Don't get paralyzed by trying to plan the perfect diet/training plan etc.  It looks like you are eating good foods, just give it a try, record everything and see what happens.

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Yeah, I'm not in my best shape ever at the moment of writing, nor am I an expert nutritionist, but I would also just keep focus on eating good quality foods and follow your hunger. Maybe try to concentrate the majority of carbs 1-3 hours before and 1-3 hours after training in order to fuel training. That would be my advice. And right now, you seem to be eating pretty good quality stuff. Just don't overeat on fruits and honey, keep it moderate.



But if you like counting calories, are already doing that and want to continue, I'd suggest trying the following options:

 

1.
Regardless of whether you are going to try to lose or gain weight, I'd take calories down a bit towards maintenance. I'd also plan the macros around protein primarily, fat secondarily and finally carbs. Meaning you mainly regulate calorie intake by regulating carb intake.

(According to what you wrote, you seem to currently be eating approximately 3000 Kcal daily of which 500 Kcal protein(17%), 600 Kcal fat (20%) and 1900 Kcal carbohydrates (63%). That might be a little low in protein and a little bit high in carbohydrate, unless you are an endurance athlete.)

I'd go for about 20% above maintenance Kcal for weight gain and 20% below maintenance Kcal for weight loss. Or closer to maintenance for just recomposing. If you want to gain weight mostly as lean muscle or lose weight mostly as fat, that is. I'd base the macros around 2g protein/kg bodyweight for gain and 3g protein/kg for loss. Then in either case, go for 20-30% Kcal from fat. For gain, maybe towards the lower end and for loss towards the higher end. Then spend the rest on carbohydrates. The reason being that increasing protein intake will help combat muscle loss during fat loss (and can help lose a bit fat too) and as body fat stores are dropping, eating more fat might help keep your hormone production up (hormone levels usually suffer when you lose weight and fat stores). For gain, higher carbohydrate intake can help keep you more energetic during training. This is partly based on what I've read elsewhere and what I just think seems reasonable =P
I think Jules is right about the estimate for your maintenance calories (around 2200 Kcal). You know your own body best, though. Whether or not you choose gain or loss, I'd take Kcal towards maintenance from what you are eating now, gradually. Don't just suddenly one day drop your Kcal intake by 700 Kcal or something, lower it like 100 Kcal per week so your metabolism has time to adjust a bit.




OR you could try John Romaniellos body recomposition scheme. He posted it in an article somewhere, sometime. I don't remember. But I'll post a resumé here.
 

2.
Romaniello proposes to take a persons relative leanness into account, instead of just using the lean body mass to calculate maintenance caloric needs (he does see LBM calculations to be superior to full body mass calculations, but wants to improve on it).

Like this:
6-12% body fat currently = eat 37Kcal per current Kg lean body mass (If you are at 20% body fat and weigh 100kg, LBM = 80kg)
12-15% 35Kcal/kg LBM
15-19% 33Kcal/kg LBM
19-22% 31Kcal/kg LBM
>22% 29Kcal/kg LBM

The reason is that the more fat you have, the less you can eat and still lose mostly fat. A lean person who does that, ends up losing muscle mass, so has to eat more calories while recomposing.

When it comes to protein, Romaniello holds that you should eat according to your desired lean body mass. And he goes on to say that 2-3 months of smart training and eating this way in the most ideal case turns into 1.5-2.5kg muscle gain. So if you have a LBM of 60kg and plan on doing a 6 month cycle perfectly, you would end up with optimally 65kg LBM - therefore you should use 65kg as the basis for your protein calculation. It will be your desired LBM. For carbohydrates, use your current LBM.


GST days:
Total caloric intake should be 100 above maintenance
3.5g protein per kg desired LBM
2.2g carbohydrate per kg current LBM
The rest comes from fat


Non-GST days:
Total caloric intake should be 500 below maintenance
3g protein per kg desired LBM
1g carbohydrate per current LBM
The rest comes from fat

This scheme was originally intended for bodybuilders using weights, but I guess it will work for GST (Gymnastic Strength Training™) as well.
Notice that it assumes you want to gain weight and recompose, not just stay at your current weight and recompose. I can't 100% guarantee the correctness of the above resumé, but you can probably find the original article somewhere if you are really interested.


Many ways to go about this stuff, as many ways as there are sports nutrition writers, it seems. So you just have to try something out.
But personally, I don't care much for calorie counting. Too much hassle and turns food into math instead of something enjoyable for me.
Anyway, nutrition is important for body composition, but is not magic. Expect to spend a lot of time to recompose. Currently you are at 9kg body fat (15% of 66kg) and you want to be at 6.6kg (10% of 66kg). That's a 3kg loss, so expect to spend 3-6 months to accomplish that. That's 100g-250g fat loss per week. 6 months is well done.

Good luck!


PS - Again, to your original post: No, I don't think you are too fat for GST. You are at a normal level and as long as you keep eating the healthy food you do, you'll do great. And if you stop eating in excess of what you think you need to eat, you'll probably lose body fat just doing that.

[Marios Roussos]

RingMax, at 5'8" and 146 lbs, you're definitely not too heavy to do any of these exercises and shouldn't worry about it. Your pics show that you have a little bit of belly fat, but it's really not excessive unless you're comparing yourself to elite athletes or male models/actors. 

 

Out of curiosity, were you bigger in the past? Your pics show evidence of striae in your lower abdomen and very mild gynecomastia, which can be associated with levels obesity that you don't currently display.

[Max Boehm]

I already tried a diet similar to Romaniellos scheme. It was doable, however I felt weak all the time. On top of that Romaniello reccomends loads of protein. I am just a shop assistant and dont earn heaps of money. Foods which are high in protein are quite expensive where I live (I do not eat many cow´s dairy products , because I always feel very bad after the consumption of a bigger amount). Rice and potatoes are way cheaper and I do not want to live on protein powder.

 

My off day is my high fat day. On this day I try to keep carbs below 30g. I tracked my protein today. Alltogether I ate 143 grams of protein. This should be enough.

 

I am aware that a maintenance of 2700-2800 Calories sounds like a lot, however I trust the calorie tracking device. If 3000 calories were too much I would have gained way more weight (fat) during the one month eating this amount of calories. However I only gained one kg.

 

@-MR When I was younger I was skinny fat. When i was younger I lived overseas for a while. Within one year I gained a lot of fat due to unhealthy eating. I managed it to drop about 15 kg within six months by eating a strict Keto diet and playing sports. The striae come from my past obesety.  Every man in my family I know hast gynaecomastia, even the super skinny ones.

Cheers

Max

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

In that case, I would go with one of the other two suggestions - but that's good. You know how you react to different dietary changes then, that makes it easier for you to tweak your eating in a way that both feels good and helps you perform well.

But if you are gaining 1kg per month, that is definitely not maintenance calories for you. 1kg per month is a lot! That's 12kg per year. For you, that is increasing your weight by almost 20% in 12 months... Weightlifters drool at the thought of that kind of weight gain.

Cost is always an issue, I know what you mean. I also consider high-protein diets to be a little unethical because it is unsustainable for the planets population to eat that way and contributes to unethical animal treatment. Life is fantastic and killing should be done with respect. If you eat 140 grams of protein, that's more than enough for your training needs. But you can probably find cheaper ways to eat well. Vegetarian sources of protein can work well, there are a lot of vegetarian body builders and you are doing GST, not bodybuilding. I think if you google around, you can probably find articles about training/nutrition and getting by at a lower cost. I remember Nate Green wrote an article like that about living in a college dorm and finding good ways to train at cheap locations and finding the best possible food for the least amount of cash. No fun eating away your whole budget, that's just silly.

[Max Boehm]

I just googled how many calories make up one kilogram of body fat. Most a bodybuilding forums state that 7000 Kalories equal one Kilogram of weight gain.

7000/30=233 -> 3000 Calories is 233 calories above maintenance calories. (simplified mathematic model) I know this does not apply one-to-one, however it prooves that my maintenance sits roughly between 2700 and 2800 calories. I will slowly decrease my intake from now on.

I am not a big fan of tofu or soy.

But I get good quality meat from our local farmer (beef, chicken, liver, heart...) and avoid "supermarket meat". I am aware that meat/fish is not like other food sources, because another being had to die for it. I believe the animal on my plate should have had a beautiful life. I learned this when I was out hunting for the first time.

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Not necessarily tofu or soy either, but look around for the protein content of other products. Could be some good sources here and there if that is important to supplement meat, fish and eggs. But if you do get 140 grams of protein straight from the farm, that's more than enough. Must be good food!

I don't think you can simplify weight gain like that though, it depends on a lot of processes going on in the body. And for who?
I'm quite sure your maintenance at your weight (66kg) should be closer to 2200 Kcal, but try both out for a while and see what happens - worst case you just change it again.

[Max Boehm]

Just a quick update:

I have been eating 2500 kcal per day for ten days now. I have lost roughly a pound of weight by now. I guess half of it was water. My strength is still increaing (more reps on L Sit Pull Ups, better form on HSPUs (against the wall), more reps on ring dips, floor tuck planche for 5 seconds (did them on parallettes before)...).

I will keep you guys updated.

I tried to open up a workout log, however it seems to be impossible at the moment due to the temporary changes.

Cheers

Max