Iron Cross is bad for you

Joshua Slocum said:

Both of your questions are answered in the post you quoted.

Actually your response was basically repeating what I said in a much wordier form

Just so I can clarify my question better: Which exercise starts becoming sports specific? (Which in this case we're talking about Rings Strength - and ignoring whether IC is still general physical preparation or sports specific)

BlairBob's answer earlier (regarding that Iron Cross being a B, so is still considered GPP, but Maltese being a D is considered sports specific) is more of what I wanted to know.  What is that "C" skill that separates the boundaries between GPP and sports specific?  Is it Inverted Cross?  Is it a Full Planche?

Iron crosses are a lower level skill (B) and many gymnasts who are not rings specialists have them. Now things like butterfly crosses (D) and Pineda crosses (D) are more exclusive to rings specialists, but other high level gymnasts like some strong all-arounders have them too. Even some non-rings specialists may have some E-F level rings skills.

Coach Sommer said:

Actually your reasoning regarding the necessary training for being a generalist is flawed.

If being a 'generalist' is your goal and, as Daniel pointed out, gymnasts are the athletes whose skills translate to the widest range of other activities (handbalancing, breakdancing, cirque, streetworkout, OAC, olympic lifting etc) why are you not focusing exclusively on GST?

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

It is a large, large part of what I do. (That's why I am at this forum!)

But it is not all I do. 

Some things I do not think gymnastic strength work is the best way to develop:

- movement creativity/improvisation

- finger strength (climbing)

- ability to deal with external load. I know you have in the past given the example of some of your athletes jerking 1.5x bdw when they did jerks, but that is almost like taking a full time elite weightlifter, seeing him do a decent muscleup or lever, and saying weightlifting is the best way to develop gymnastic strength. 

- lower body strength. again here I think external load is needed. and i think the lack of weighted posterior chain work (squats/DL) the supplement the dynamic work is the reason you see many high level gymnasts walking around with either ankle,knee,and low back problems (sometimes all of the above). 

- sprinting technique/mechanics

- low gate movement + knee resiliency under various angles, movements, and variations of deep knee flexion. 

Will GST give a good base for the above? Sure, but definitely not as well as incorporating all these elements simultaneously, for the generalist. 

Again, it is a huge part of what I do! But for lower body and midsection (mainly in handling external load) there can be some additions if one has a generalist mindset. Surely you can't say most gymnasts physiques are 'balanced'. Nor should they be, as it is a sport that requires very little in the way of lower body hypertrophy. Thus you are taking out some proven effective methods. Add to that the lack of improvisational movement  and various joint resiliency (fingers and deep knee flexion). For upperbody, it is unparalleled. 

alan tseng said:

Actually your response was basically repeating what I said in a much wordier form

 

Just so I can clarify my question better: Which exercise starts becoming sports specific? (Which in this case we're talking about Rings Strength - and ignoring whether IC is still general physical preparation or sports specific)

 

 

My answer remains the same. There are no "sport specific" exercises. Only ones that are worth your time to train and ones that aren't. Where the line is depends on a number of factors - how much time do you have to train? What are you training for? What are your current strengths? Weaknesses? 

If you train two hours a week with your ultimate frisbee club, it's not worth your time to try to learn even a muscle-up. If you train 30 hours a week for aerial straps, developing an iron cross is almost certainly worth your while for the strength gains alone. 

If you want to know, within the realm of gymnastics, where the cutoff is between skills that all-arounders ("generalists") typically have and skills generally only performed by rings specialists, the answer is still "it depends": which league are you looking at? What are the athlete's individual strong points? 

You can look at how frequently non-gymnasts possess certain skills, but this raises the issue that most non-gymnasts don't know how to properly train gymnastics skills. How many people would have a maltese if it were as easy as just adding a little more weight every day? 

Joshua Slocum said:

My answer remains the same. There are no "sport specific" exercises. Only ones that are worth your time to train and ones that aren't. Where the line is depends on a number of factors - how much time do you have to train? What are you training for? What are your current strengths? Weaknesses? 

 

If you train two hours a week with your ultimate frisbee club, it's not worth your time to try to learn even a muscle-up. If you train 30 hours a week for aerial straps, developing an iron cross is almost certainly worth your while for the strength gains alone. 

 

If you want to know, within the realm of gymnastics, where the cutoff is between skills that all-arounders ("generalists") typically have and skills generally only performed by rings specialists, the answer is still "it depends": which league are you looking at? What are the athlete's individual strong points? 

 

You can look at how frequently non-gymnasts possess certain skills, but this raises the issue that most non-gymnasts don't know how to properly train gymnastics skills. How many people would have a maltese if it were as easy as just adding a little more weight every day? 

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because in my opinion everyone should learn a muscle-up.  I also believe all of Foundation is GPP for everyone, but at what point after Foundation becomes sports specific, I personally don't know myself. 

My definition of the line drawn between GPP and sports specific is whether the vast majority of the people on the planet are capable of doing something with minimal amount of time spent a week.  If you have to train 30 hours a week on aerial silk, then that's sport specific.  Train 1 hour a week for a nice handstand? That's GPP to me.

And the semantics debate beings. All ideas, sound or not, either start, end, or pass through this point up to several times in their lifespan. Interesting note: the 'passing through stage' is usually more of a 'hitching a ride on a slug' stage...

At least it came out on page 3 instead of 14.

this thread has been weird, because the original question ("is the iron cross bad for you?") was never discussed.  the conversation has been about A. how ido does not have advanced ring strength and B. whether the iron cross is a generalist or specialist exercise.

Ronin168 said:

this thread has been weird, because the original question ("is the iron cross bad for you?") was never discussed.  the conversation has been about A. how ido does not have advanced ring strength and B. whether the iron cross is a generalist or specialist exercise.

Learned correctly it is not bad.

Micawberian said:

I know some of you have seen this by now, a facebook comment by Ido Portal a few hours ago:

 

"I've written before on the Iron Cross. Short story: did it myself, taught it to others. Paid the price, so did others. Realized it is not a health promoting element, to say the least. Looked at the anatomy behind it - didnt like what I have seen as well. Eliminated it from my practice and from the practice of my students. I do not believe it is worth the risks and degradation of the shoulder capsule and glenohumeral joint as seen by a very high percentage of shoulder surgeries of elite level gymnasts in general and ring specialists specifically. Some can stay healthy on a diet of crosses, most will not. Other elements I am not fond of from similar reasons: inlocate/dislocate, maltese, various high impact swings and giants on the rings."

 

source: https://www.facebook.com/portal.ido

 

 

 

Maybe I'm terribly mistaken, but it seems to me, judging from the quote above, that Ido is saying that the iron cross, which is a "B" level skill is:

a) Incredibly risky to teach to ordinary adults and not worth the trouble -- which I can understand -- and,

b) Biomechanically flawed, so that the constant practice of which, even though done correctly, even by elite gymnasts, is certain to result in extensive injuries.

c) That most elite gymnasts & ring specialists have suffered from several shoulder injuries because of their repeated practice of a "B" level skill (which I imagine is significantly easier to master than "D" level or "E" level skills).

* I find his arguments in (b) and © above a little bit disturbing, not only because of the matter of fact way in which he makes his claims (knowing full well that he's not qualified to be as categorical on that subject), but also because he does not have any data to back up his claims even if he were qualified to make the assertion.

Ronin168 said:

this thread has been weird, because the original question ("is the iron cross bad for you?") was never discussed. the conversation has been about A. how ido does not have advanced ring strength and B. whether the iron cross is a generalist or specialist exercise.

- All strength training is potentially dangerous if you train foolishly. The iron cross is no different.

- The iron cross is a lower level GST element and is safely achievable to those who are willing to be patient and follow proper programming and progressions.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

perhaps I have not developped the eye for this yet, but in the clip shown in

http://idoportal.blogspot.com/2008/04/san-francisco.html

, I cannot clearly see that Ido's arms are bent. Are you sure about that?

And what are your pointers on the body to recognize that?

Coach Sommer said:

- The iron cross is a lower level GST element

r

This is exactly why I am training with the Gbodies curriculum system

gastar91 said:

perhaps I have not developped the eye for this yet, but in the clip shown in

http://idoportal.blogspot.com/2008/04/san-francisco.html

, I cannot clearly see that Ido's arms are bent. Are you sure about that?

And what are your pointers on the body to recognize that?

Blurry video but it's pretty straighforward - the elbows aren't locked.

This is how an IC should look - 

This is more how Ido's looks - 

An excerpt from an Iron Cross article that explains why this minor detail matters - 

The elbows MUST be locked at all times. This is the number-one bad habit encountered because it makes the exercises easier by placing more emphasis on the lats. Do not give in. After developing this bad habit it is extremely hard to correct because the body learns that movement neurologically and the lats are too heavily stimulated at the expense of the chest.

As you can probably imagine, a muscular imbalance being developed through this heavy a movement - leads to injury pretty quickly. It's no wonder Ido developed shoulder problems and had to abandon his Cross training.

thank you for clearing that up!

Coach Sommer said:

- All strength training is potentially dangerous if you train foolishly. The iron cross is no different.

- The iron cross is a lower level GST element and is safely achievable to those who are willing to be patient and follow proper programming and progressions.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Quite possible the greatest post I've read on this site. Lower level? Nearly brought a tear to my eye. This is why I trust GB.

Hardy Evans said:

Quite possible the greatest post I've read on this site. Lower level? Nearly brought a tear to my eye. This is why I trust GB.

Well it is a B level skill whereas the most difficult strength skills are rated F with A being the easiest on the scale.

Regarding straight arms: What if you have elbows like mine that look bent when the joint is locked. I even had to explain that to a karate instructor once and show him that my elbow didn't go any further. Is that something that could cost you points during a competition?

Yes, in fact kids are selected after evaluation on underflexibility , over flexibility or good flexibility with possibility of improvements.