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Started by mcneuen, June 15, 2014 · 15 Replies · 472 Views
The course materials say that failures will happen, and you should not count a failed rep. Instead, just try again until you complete the required number of reps.
Does this mean that for mastery you don't need to have 5, say, successes in a row? Or does mastery require that all of the reps be completed without any failed mixed in?
Nice try. 
In terms of building strength, you need to go through the complete ROM for that exercise. All the partial reps in the world won't help you master the exercise. So if you got 7 out of 10 reps and then your form falls apart, it's better to stop, take a breath, compose yourself and then finish the last three with proper form than to pump out incomplete reps.
In terms of showing mastery of your strength, though, failures don't cut it. It's lying to yourself. I'm taking the approach that if I'm ever not sure I've mastered a component, I probably haven't.
in essence, if you are doing a set of 10 handstand pushups for instance, and you get 13 done, 10 with good ROM and technique, that would be appropriate for that set. However, for mastery it should be easy, meaning you need to do 10 without mistakes. But for the workouts leading up to mastery, feel free to add in extra reps to equal the set number you are supposed to get. Make sense?
Jonathan, You're misunderstanding my question. I wasn't talking about partial reps, ROM or the rules for the Foundation Series.
I was talking about balance in the handstand series. In the program materials under Balance, there is a page called Failed Sets Do Not Count. The text says that you should not count sets where you failed and this may require you to perform "many more work sets" than prescribed for that day to reach the total. There is an example about week 11 holds requiring 5 rounds of 60s. If you fall on the 4th set, you should take a short break and then try to repeat the set until you either get to 5 or you run out of time for the day. The text doesn't go on to say whether that day would qualify as a mastery day if you get to 5. If you turn to the Mastery page, it does not say that all of the required sets need to be done in a row without any falls to qualify as mastery. Looking down the road, I want to make sure I have it right that to pass the freestanding handstand (or even headstand) PEs, if you fall during any of the sets, that whole day is shot for mastery. It's not unimaginable to me that there might be a situation where an exercise feels easy but you have an off day and have a fall but then otherwise complete the 5 sets.
I'm not doing a "nice try" or "lying to myself." I'm trying to be careful about not importing concepts from Foundation into Handstand if they don't belong there. For example, many people assume that the no-rest-other-than-iM from Foundation applies in Handstand, but it doesn't.
MT, I take it your answer is that any falls will mean that that day did not count. Okeydoke. I didn't see that in the materials, but if that's the rule, that's the rule. Thanks for your response.
No that's not what I meant. Let's say you're doing 5 sets of a 10 second hold. If you're going for mastery you should do 5 straight sets without failure. However, if that's just your workout for the day you can count it as good even if it takes you 8 tries to get 5 good sets of 10 seconds. All the better of a workout you got from your persistence! Next workout you could move on to the next workout you're supposed to do. But to move on to next PE you should do them without failure.
Got it. That's what I understood you to be saying, but I didn't summarize it with enough detail. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
Actually, MT, I think you are wrong. Nowhere in the course portal does it say that mastery requires all sets to be completed without failure.
We can rest as long as we want in between sets, and we can fail as much as we have to in order to reach the daily quota. But there are no explicit special exemptions outlined for mastery week. Handstand is a process of continual refinement, after all.
Micawberian, how do you get mastery of something if you fail to do it? It makes no sense.
Of course 5x120s HS is a long journey itself, but has to be without fall at any set. If you fall you fail, and it doesn't matter; that's the refinement, integrate that patterns deeply inside of us that we even think to fail.
Do you think you are going to fail or fall during upright if you are healthy and don't stumble over something? Same with HS.
Here are some quotes from the course:
- "...lets say you are working HS/PE1 and are working on your week 11 assignment (5x60s) and fall on the fourth set. Take a short break and then attempt to repeat the set successfully. Continue this process of repetition until you either succeed and then being working on the fifth set or you run out for time for the day's workout".
- "Initially you are going to to fail far more than you are going to succeed. Learning to set your ego aside and accept, embrace, and ultimately move past failure is an integral part of handstand training."
- "This [failure] is a natural part of the learning process and will occur on a frequent basis"
- Handstands are a skill and as such your handstand development will proceed forward in peaks and valleys."
Given the specific example of a week 11 failure, it is best to assume that the course has not applied special restrictions to mastery. Until A GB athelete, moderator, or coach chimes in with a final answer, the course points to me that it is okay to fail during mastery week. I have moved through the freestanding SE up to SE7 now with failure in every workout. Failure either because I fall too early or because I could not kick up into the handstand or because video shows bad form. But as you progress, the failed sets decrease over time. That is what I understood as refinement.
You forget the most important quote from the course in every exercise:
"TRIPOD: HS/PE1
Mastery
To move to the next progression, you MUST able to PERFORM 5 sets of 60s along with the coupled mobility."
Of course itsf OK to fail during mastery sets, that's precisely the journey! But to MOVE to the next progression you've to demonstrate mastery and that involves NO FAIL during mastery. To achieve that level of proficiency, you'll fail many times along the journey; that's the meaning of the quotes of the course, don't be daunted by fails and keep going no matter what, but that doesn't mean that MASTERY to move forward means FAIL.
I think you're overthink the issue here. And if you're progressing with sloppy form, falls and that, you've no mastery of those elements whatsoever.
Cheers!
Well, hmm, it seems we are both interpreting the text in opposite ways. Too stubborn to give up our interpretations 
I think I would like to wait and see now if a moderator could chime in and clarify.
I understand for foundation, of course, it's no exceptions. Foundation mastery has no room for failure to any degree. With the open-ended structure of parts of handstand, I can understand why we are disagreeing.
Micawberian said:Well, hmm, it seems we are both interpreting the text in opposite ways. Too stubborn to give up our interpretations
I understand for foundation, of course, it's no exceptions. Foundation mastery has no room for failure to any degree. With the open-ended structure of parts of handstand, I can understand why we are disagreeing.
But then, how could we say we have "mastered" an element, if it requires many tries to get 5x60s?
I know I wouldn't feel like I mastered an element that required 5x60s (for example) if I failed one (or more) of the sets, and required extra sets in order to complete it... I agree with Adriano. How can you say you mastered something, if essentially, you failed to do it?
Regarding the structure of Foundation vs. Handstand: I work Handstand just like I would Foundation - no room for failure where mastery is concerned.
- Cody
You guys have taken the word "mastery" out of proportion and out of context. Mastery of handstand is not 5x120 seconds. Mastery of handstand is actually something closer to 5x30 minute sets with 45lbs prone undergrip dislocates as mobility with no rest in between with your eyes closed while humming the violin sections of Rued Langgard's symphonies balancing on the pinpoint top of Taipei 101.
Do any of you see anywhere in the course packet for handstand one a direct quote to support your conclusion? Something obviously and clearly in the written word to support your conclusion.
I see many direct quotes in support of my conclusion, as listed above. All I see is that you guys are hung up on the dictionary definition of "mastery".
Of the quotes you posted, only the first one is pertinent (IMO) the issue being discussed, namely; the standard for mastery in H1. The other three simply state that failure will be a part of HS training, and that accepting and moving past failure is essential for HS development. These quotes have to do with the nature of HS being a skill. I guess we could debate what 'moving past failure' means... and to me it means mastering an element, which means not failing any sets.
Now, concerning the first quote... it does not provide a clear answer to the question. It does not state whether or not failing sets and then succeeding counts as mastery. It simply states the protocol for when failure is encountered. I repeat, it does not state whether or not completing (for example) 5x60s, after failing set 4 and then succeeding in a subsequent set counts as mastery - it only says that failure is ok during mastery week, and does not say if it is ok to move on to the next element.
Regarding your assessment of what the best assumption to make is regarding the mastery standard in your earlier post, I disagree. Frankly, I don't like making assumptions, however... If we were to make an assumption, I would argue that it is best to follow known standards for mastery (Foundation standards), unless stated otherwise (and there has not been a clear statement that says otherwise).
Anyway, I respectfully disagree with your position, and stand by mine. I don't think we'll get very far until we can get an official answer.
- Cody
Coach had something to say about this here (#13): https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14987-been-taking-2-5-minute-breaks-between-hs-pe-sets-is-that-acceptable/
He also did not disagree with what the moderators said here: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11487-failed-sets-and-mastery/
Hope this helps.