Olympic weightlifting and F1/H1? A question that has prolly been asked 1,000x

Hello all:

This is my first post here.

I've been very interested in learning some basic gymnastics progressions for a long time and am seriously considering purchase of F1 and H1.  However, I do have at least one major reservation:  I have recently located a qualified Olympic weightlifting coach (after years of searching) and am enjoying the hell out of weightlifting and am finally moving the bar fluidly and with athleticism (my coach has corrected many many bad habits I picked up from powerlifting & self teaching through Youtube videos).  Although I've done a bit of searching through the forums and listening to some interviews with coach Sommer, I've yet to figure out how I might integrate the two.

To give you an idea of my present programming, I train with my coach on Mondays and Fridays.  Mondays are snatches and snatch-assist movements and Fridays are cleans  and clean assist movements (presently I am not training the jerk).  Wednesdays I typically do some form of assistance work for the snatch and clean, but not the full lifts since I don't want to develop bad habit when I am not under his watchful eye.

On Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday I perform my squats and presses.  The main squat exercises I use are either the front or back squat, and the presses are either the push press or the strict press.  I also regularly perform pull-ups and various forms of core work throughout the week as well as greasing the groove work with with light overhead and front squats.

I realize that adding 2-3 hours per week of gymnastics training to this schedule will be too much, so I am well-aware that I will need to reduce the volume of my work.  That said, squatting 3x per week is a must for me, and training the Olympic lifts with my coach on Mondays and Fridays are a must for me.  I am flexible on getting rid of the pressing, however, and am flexible on moving my squatting days to M-W-F if need be, as well as getting rid of the rest of the supplemental work that I do to reduce the volume sufficiently to allow gymnastics training.

So, given the forgoing, is it realistic to start adding in gymnastics progressions from F1/H1 to my training. If so, how would you do it?  A couple ideas occur to me off the top of my (and any feedback would be greatly appreciated):

Monday: Squats & Snatch-based

Tuesday:  Gymnastics

Wednesday:  Squats & OL assist

Thursday:  Gymnastics or off day depending my work capacity

Friday:  Squats & Clean-based

Saturday:  Gymnastics

Sunday:  Off

Monday:  Gymnastics AM, snatch-based PM

Tuesday:  Squats

Wednesday:  Off or Gymnastics & OL assist work if work capacity permits

Thursday:  Squats

Friday:  Gymnastics AM, Clean-based PM

Saturday:  Squats

Sunday:  Off

Do these sound like reasonable and workable schedules to still make progress in gymnastics and weightlifting?  I realize that you cannot serve two masters, and that I won't progress as fast in gymnastics if I am only doing it 2-3 days per week, but I am not willing to give up weightlifting and would like to get work gymnastics into a weightlifting program, not work weightlifting into a gymnastics program, if you understand the distinction.

I appreciate any guidance that you might be able to provide.

Thank you,

Matthew A. Levy

 Do your squats MWF. It doesn't sound like you are doing pulls and TBH, I think you should probably stay from them until you get good with the lifts. Once you have figured out the lifts, figuring out pulls isn't really that hard (as it's often like a missed lift anyways).

 It's your call whether you'll do any Olympic Lifting work on W. That's up to you and your coach. Might not be horrible but stop when your lifts turn to crap or the bar speed starts slowing down or you miss lifts.

 Gymnastics in the morning, the lifts later makes a lot of sense if you can manage that schedule. I think there is a 3 day program in F1/H1 if memory serves. Or do the Sn/Cn first (no idea why you aren't jerking but ) then do the gymnastics, then do the Squats and Pressing (pressing will be more of an assistance to the bent arm gymnastics stuff).

 This kinda frees up TuThSa though. You could do gymnastics these day but it depends on your recovery. Heck, Chris@Midtown loved to do gymnastics after WL ( 110 Sn, 130CJ, 210 BS? ) but he's also in his young 20's, in shape and has some pretty good genes (pretty much everyone in his family is pretty damn athletic and his older brother is a National level 105/+...who likes to do Flags, MU, etc)

 I just don't like the idea of squats Th before the lifts again on Fri. On the one hand, this will tax your legs a bit and limit the loads you are lifting which might be ok if you are still working the technique without any heavy weights. As a beginner, I'd rather see you fresh than taxed.

 As you are just a beginner, you don't really need to be squatting before sessions or the day before like an advanced intermediate or advanced lifter.

Imo gymnastics and WL combined is awesome, I wish I had access to a good coach for WL. Only downside would be the unavoidable mass gained in your legs/hips that will make it harder for you to work the levers. If you had the energy for it, you could work the leg elements from foundation on your WL days - they will bulletproof your legs in a great way!

As for the upper body elements combined with WL, I think you might run into overtraining, or at least you really need to take care of your prehab, or otherwise you might run into overuse injuries I suspect. 

Blairbob said:

 Do your squats MWF. It doesn't sound like you are doing pulls and TBH, I think you should probably stay from them until you get good with the lifts. Once you have figured out the lifts, figuring out pulls isn't really that hard (as it's often like a missed lift anyways).

 It's your call whether you'll do any Olympic Lifting work on W. That's up to you and your coach. Might not be horrible but stop when your lifts turn to crap or the bar speed starts slowing down or you miss lifts.

 

 Gymnastics in the morning, the lifts later makes a lot of sense if you can manage that schedule. I think there is a 3 day program in F1/H1 if memory serves. Or do the Sn/Cn first (no idea why you aren't jerking but ) then do the gymnastics, then do the Squats and Pressing (pressing will be more of an assistance to the bent arm gymnastics stuff).

 

 This kinda frees up TuThSa though. You could do gymnastics these day but it depends on your recovery. Heck, Chris@Midtown loved to do gymnastics after WL ( 110 Sn, 130CJ, 210 BS? ) but he's also in his young 20's, in shape and has some pretty good genes (pretty much everyone in his family is pretty damn athletic and his older brother is a National level 105/+...who likes to do Flags, MU, etc)

 I just don't like the idea of squats Th before the lifts again on Fri. On the one hand, this will tax your legs a bit and limit the loads you are lifting which might be ok if you are still working the technique without any heavy weights. As a beginner, I'd rather see you fresh than taxed.

 

 As you are just a beginner, you don't really need to be squatting before sessions or the day before like an advanced intermediate or advanced lifter.

Thanks for the response!

This was quite helpful.  It sounds like training gymnastics 3x per week or more on F1/H1 along with my present training schedule (with a few alterations) might be possible, after all.

A few clarifications on my present programming (not sure if this alters your answer at all):

I am doing pulls.  I do snatch pulls, snatch DL, and/or snatch RDLs (usually 2 of the 3) after doing snatches on Monday and clean pulls, clean DL, and/or clean RDLs after cleans on Fridays.  On Wednesday, when I train OL'ing on my own, I also do some pulls, but usually from the high hang, and with no arm bend.  I am not doing jerks right now for the simple reason that I cannot train a 3rd day with my coach and don't want to ingrain bad technique doing them on my own, so instead I just do push presses and strict presses (usually 2x per week strict presses and 1x per week strict presses).

Although I am a beginner to OL'ing, due to my PL'ing background I am a very strong beginner, so the weights I am using in my OL'ing are far more in the technique weight range and so far my squatting the day before my Friday workout hasn't impacted it (also, my Thursday squat workout is usually a lighter day, the heavy days are Tuesday and Saturday).  Indeed, even my Wednesday OL day is more technique oriented.

Also, it sounds like you think it is okay to keep presses is my program in addition to H1/F1.  Is that right?

And, if I am understanding your response, you think the following would be a workable schedule:

Monday:  Squat & gymnastics AM; Snatch-based workout and presses PM

Tuesday:  gymnastics (depending on work capacity)

Wednesday:  Squat & gymnastics AM; light technique work for OL and presses PM

Thursday:  Off

Friday:  Squats & gymnastics AM; Clean-based workout and presses PM

Saturday:  gymnastics (depending on work capacity)

Sunday:  Off

In this schedule I would drop my present frequency method training (daily OHS, front squats, pull-ups & core).

Thank you for your prompt response!

Jukkaboy said:

As for the upper body elements combined with WL, I think you might run into overtraining, or at least you really need to take care of your prehab, or otherwise you might run into overuse injuries I suspect. 

Thanks for the response.  I was sorta wondering about that, which is why I had said I was open to dropping my pressing from the present program if need be.

Hey fellas, just adding my $.02 to the discussion as someone who has been combining Gymnastic Strength Training™ and Olympic weightlifting for the past several months. Everyone's individual schedule might vary a bit, but here are some principles I've found to be true:

1. Whereas you know what to expect from your Olympic lifting programming, you may be caught off guard at times by the Foundation course. What I mean is that certain movements or elements might challenge you in unexpected ways, thus leaving you more sore or fatigued than you might think. Just a heads up.

2. Especially if you used to powerlift, then I would recommend NOT barbell strict pressing. Foundation has all you need for upper body pressing strength, and until you decide to compete in Olympic lifting, you can get by without barbell strict pressing.

3. On certain days, depending on the reps, sets, and movements, I like using the Foundation Single Leg Squat elements as a warm up for Olympic lifting. Think more like 5 x 5 Hawaiian Squats, not 5 x 5 Lunges with 100% additional bodyweight.

4. As long as your grip isn't a weakness for you, then I recommend using straps when you snatch (and maybe on RDL's and clean pulls too), just to save your forearms and elbows from any possible injury from the excessive gripping. (You'll thank me when you get to 5 x 60 s Bent Arm Chin Hang.)

5. Foundation is meant to be a complete program in and of itself, and I would recommend that you tailor the volume of your Olympic lifting work as such. For instance, I prioritized Foundation and would always complete that, and then if I would reduce my Oly sets if needed.

Enough for now. I think all the weekly schedules you posted look feasible. Have fun! Keep us updated with your progress. As Coach says, there's magic to be had from finding the sweet spot of gymnastics and Olympic weightlifting.

Best,

Chris

Again, it depends on whether you want to get into Gymnastics more or Olympic Weightlifting or you are just doing both equally. No idea what size you are.

Looks pretty good, especially if Th is a lighter squat day.

I'd keep up with the presses unless you start to notice either the bar pressing work diminishing or the gymnastics work going nowhere.

What do you squat and pull?

I pretty much do Weightlifting these days but I've been adding a bit of gymnastics lately for a change of pace or to keep it light so I can workout at home.

Blairbob said:

Again, it depends on whether you want to get into Gymnastics more or Olympic Weightlifting or you are just doing both equally. No idea what size you are.

Looks pretty good, especially if Th is a lighter squat day.

 

I'd keep up with the presses unless you start to notice either the bar pressing work diminishing or the gymnastics work going nowhere.

What do you squat and pull?

I pretty much do Weightlifting these days but I've been adding a bit of gymnastics lately for a change of pace or to keep it light so I can workout at home.

I would have to say I am planning in being a weightlifter who does gymnastics, not a gymnast who does weightlifting.  I'll stick with the presses for now, but I guess I'll just have to see how the volume of gymnastics works affects them and vice versa.

I haven't tested my ass-to-the-grass squat, so I don't know the max, but rep calculators put my squat anywhere from roughly 290-310 (my bodyweight is 158, presently).  In another 6-7 weeks I'll know for sure what my 1 RM is since I building up to it.  I should note that my PL style squat numbers would predict a higher Olympic-style squat, but I have excess back strength compared with my legs from all the PL-style DLs and PL-style deadlifting -- at one point (albeit not now) my PL-style DL was 500 on the nose (although my bodyweight was about 10-12 lbs more at the time).  As far as pulls go, again, no idea of my max.  However, I perform reps of 5 from the high hang with 120 kg and am able to maintain enough bar speed that I can hear it rattle on each rep (and when the bar hits my junk it is moving with enough speed that it hurts a bit.)    When I clean and snatch DL, I am doing so with very different form and my PL coach is having me do higher reps and pull slowly to make sure I am using my legs and keeping my balance mid-foot rather than on the heels.  My last snatch grip RDLs are for 3 set of 5 at a slow pace at 110 kg.  The weight is pretty easy at the time (I could do a lot more), but I don't need to as I get VERY sore in the glutes and lats after doing them for many days afterwards.

Does any of this data alter your suggestions for my incorporation of F1/H1 into my WL training?

Chris Garay said:

Hey fellas, just adding my $.02 to the discussion as someone who has been combining Gymnastic Strength Training™ and Olympic weightlifting for the past several months. Everyone's individual schedule might vary a bit, but here are some principles I've found to be true:

 

1. Whereas you know what to expect from your Olympic lifting programming, you may be caught off guard at times by the Foundation course. What I mean is that certain movements or elements might challenge you in unexpected ways, thus leaving you more sore or fatigued than you might think. Just a heads up.

 

2. Especially if you used to powerlift, then I would recommend NOT barbell strict pressing. Foundation has all you need for upper body pressing strength, and until you decide to compete in Olympic lifting, you can get by without barbell strict pressing.

 

3. On certain days, depending on the reps, sets, and movements, I like using the Foundation Single Leg Squat elements as a warm up for Olympic lifting. Think more like 5 x 5 Hawaiian Squats, not 5 x 5 Lunges with 100% additional bodyweight.

 

4. As long as your grip isn't a weakness for you, then I recommend using straps when you snatch (and maybe on RDL's and clean pulls too), just to save your forearms and elbows from any possible injury from the excessive gripping. (You'll thank me when you get to 5 x 60 s Bent Arm Chin Hang.)

 

5. Foundation is meant to be a complete program in and of itself, and I would recommend that you tailor the volume of your Olympic lifting work as such. For instance, I prioritized Foundation and would always complete that, and then if I would reduce my Oly sets if needed.

 

Enough for now. I think all the weekly schedules you posted look feasible. Have fun! Keep us updated with your progress. As Coach says, there's magic to be had from finding the sweet spot of gymnastics and Olympic weightlifting.

 

Best,

Chris

Thanks Chris!

1.  Yeah, I figured.  I assumed that I was going to have to reduce volume, particularly for upper body movements in my WL program to accommodate H1/F1.

2.  I really use the strict press as a way of deloading from heavier push presses.  On days I strict press, I typically use about ~65% of the weight I am push pressing for the same number of reps, I come nowhere close to failure on these days.  That said, I appreciate what you are saying about the upper body pressing strength component of H1/F1, which is why I had considered dropping all pressing at least initially.  Out of curiosity, would you keep the push press?

3.  Interesting idea.  That is sort of how I presently use my "frequency" training with the OH squat and front squat, as warm-ups.

4.  Already using straps on all pulls other than the competition lifts themselves.  Thanks for the confirmation.

5.  Looks like I am going to have to play it by ear as to how my body handles the volume.  That said, I would put weightlifting for me as a higher priority than gymnastics.  While I am willing to adjust the volume of my WL to some degree, I am only willing to do it so far, and any additional adjustments to volume needed will need to come from reduced frequency of gymnastics training.  So it sounds like I might not be able to do the F1/H1 program as intended as a stand-alone program.  I guess we'll just see how I respond to the volume.  It should be fun finding out tho!

Thanks for your input and help!

Only one way to find out. 

DL 500 and SQ 300. Definitely need to squat more but that's a damn good DL for a 69/77. 

Banging the bar? Ugh. I've cracked my pelvis once. Hurts like hell. Got old so I'm more of a brusher now.

Yeah, Snatch DL feel very squatty to me though Clean DL not as much. 

My experiences with this, though I'm only a newbie and nowhere near as strong as you...

Doing F1+H1 twice a week, instead of the four day split definitely helped with recovery time.

I did Olympic lifting twice a week as well, and then one day I would do some possible bodybuilding style/have fun in the gym

So my schedule would work out like this

M: F1+H1

Tuesday: Oly lifting

Wednesday rest

Thursday: Oly lifting

Friday: F1+H1

Saturday: (possibly) FUN

I was in the best shape of my life 4 weeks ago, now I am fat as I have got exams and I should be revising right now.

Thanks for your feedback on the split you've been using.  And thanks to everyone who has chimed in thus far with your experiences and advice.

Out of curiosity, typically how long a program is F1/H1 as a stand-alone program (i.e., without additional lifting on, what I guess is usually a 4-day split)?  I understand that people proceed at different rates, but what is a typical range of time that the program lasts.  How is that altered by the addition of lifting and doing it 2 or 3 days per week instead of 4?

There are 7 skills being built in F1, correct?  What are those 7 skills and how do you feel your advancement is affected by concurrent weight training?  I am pretty sure I know what 6 of the 7 are from "Building the Gymnastic Body":  L-Sit, Straddle, Manna, Back Lever, Front Lever, and Planche.  Is that right?  What is the 7th?  Are certain of those skills enhanced by weight training?  Are some inhibited?

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Enkidu,

The Foundation Series will take most people a few years to master, if not longer. It might be most useful to think of it as a life-long journey rather than just a few months of programming. The 7 movements are Hollow Back Press, Rope Climb, Straddle Planche, Front Lever, Manna, Side Lever, and Single Leg Squat.

Best,

Chris

Pardon my ignorance, but a side lever is a human flag, right?

And of the 7 elements you mentioned, do you feel any of them are being hindered by concurrent weightlifting?  Are any being helped?

As far as the foundation series being a many year journey, I totally get that, I was just wondering about the typical range of time it takes for people to progress through the first part of that step:  Foundation One.

Yep, a side lever is a human flag.

With regards to any of the F7 hindering Olympic weightlifting, I think you should:

1) Follow the Foundation One programming to a tee.

2) Adjust the volume and intensity of your Olympic lifts accordingly.

3) Prioritize the classic lifts (snatch, clean, and jerk) over the assistance exercises (squats, pulls, and presses).

I imagine Foundation One could take someone anywhere from a few months to one year to complete, depending on their starting point, their level of adherence to the program, their recovery abilities, and their workout frequency.

Hope this helps!

Thanks Chris.  That makes sense.

Looks like I'm about to take the plunge and order H1/F1 (gonna wait to see if I won a free F1 for sharing gymnasticbodies FB posts, first tho, lol).  I spoke to my WL coach today after training about concurrently training gymnastics movements and, surprisingly, he whole-heartedly supported it.

 The Chinese and Russian and Polish weightlifters were known to do a fair amount of gymnastics. There are a lot of Weightlifting coaches out there right now that love to incorporate some gymnastics into their lifters programming and have talked at length about if their lifters had a basic gymnastics background prior to lifting. 

 I would imagine if you are only doing gymnastics training 2 days a week versus 4 you'd progress half as fast. It's not exactly that cut and dry but F1 scheduling changes on the frequency of getting through the movements based on how often you are training per week.

 I would also imagine Weightlifting taxes recovery quite a bit. Fortunately you are at the point that you are not lifting heavy weights and still learning technique. Similar could be said of where you would be with the Foundations program. Establishing mobility and strength in odd positions besides hip flexor endurance (critical for the L sit and levers to some degree) and joint strength.

Using the two day split in the four just let me progress through foundation easier.

It gives you more days to completely rest, when I was on the four day split I was unable to complete mastery/I felt weaker with F1.

The only thing which kept getting hit for me though was my scapulas, they were constantly sore. Although I have cleaned up my form now and don't retract my scaps to a massive extent during weightlifting, so hopefully it wont be too bad nowadays

Thanks for of all the input guys.  Literally just ordered H1/F1 a few minutes ago.  Now I have a lot of reading to do!