Anyone else getting sore hamstring tendons from the SLS SE>iM's?

I thought I'd been progressing slowly with these, but during the past six months on SLS/SE>iM's 3, 4 and 5, my hamstring tendons seem to get increasingly sore post workout. There's usually a bit of tenderness during the first set, but then it goes away. It's nothing serious yet, but it does feel like the initial stage of tendonitis. 

 

I'll take a break from the iM's, and then back down to the shoulder bridge leg curl for at least four weeks to see if it takes care of the problem.

 

I suspect the reason is that I've never done any specific hamstring work in the past, and consequently they're weak. Another deficit revealed by Foundation, I guess. I've also gone straight for 5x5 on these, which is kind of foolish, when they're really strength exercises of the same caliber as the SE's. When I resume them, I'll work back up using the 5x5 template instead. 

 

Anyway, if you're like me, take your time with these.

Sounds like some tendonopathy. I will post some tips tommorrow. It's Friday night and I need to turn off my physio brain

Is the pain lasting to the next day? If not, then keep im5 going but do less reps.

For tendon pain you need a combination of isometric holds, endurance, strength, eccentrics and plyometrics.

I would add SLS/SE1im for high reps. Gradually build up to several sets of sets of 50. This is similar to what Coach does the Achilles tendon. For an isometric hold do iM 4 without bending the hips for 5x10 seconds. There should be enough plyometrics in iM5.

I would do these after iM 5 so that you are not too fatigued. I would warm up with some iM1-4 before doing 5.

Usually tendons like 2-3 days a week of rehab. Try this for a couple of weeks and if needed you could add some eccentrics.

I hope this helps. I would be interested to hear what Coach does for hamstrings as I am sure he has some book of secrets that us Physio's don't know about.

Thanks for the detailed response.

I'm not exactly in pain the day after a SLS workout, but there's some residual tingling and stifness, so I'll take a few weeks break from the iM's, then ease back to it. I like the idea of high reps of an easier variation. Hamstring stretches should also alleviate the issue.

And wow, GHR is tough, it's a strength goal in its own right.

Residual tingling and stiffness is still an indicator of doing too much. So it is wise to pull back a little. Let us know how you progress.

Will do, thanks!

Ok, so it's been a month. I took a break from the SLS iM's, but continued to do a few SLS every workout, just to keep'em fresh. However, the pain and stifness is still there. I think it's the combination of stiff legged windmills, mn/pe6 iM, and other stuff that keeps irritating the tendons. Maybe I have no choice but to completely cut out exercises that involve the hamstrings for a while, which is a real bummer. The above exercises I can execute without pain, but the load perhaps is still to great to nullify my rest. It's a bummer, but I'll figure it out, one way or another.

That sucks man, sorry to hear it. 

Ravn, where does it bother you? Is it high up near the attachments to the pelvis, or more mid thigh region, or distal? I know you've really been working hard on your pike flexibility for MM/PE6, so I wonder if some of this could just be the muscles getting freed up a little and then getting new strength in a new ROM; or could be some muscle pulls from the stretching that are working themselves out. It's pretty unusual to get overuse injuries to the leg muscles, though it can happen. I like the idea of working higher reps of easier exercises and working eccentrics to strengthen tendons up.

It's on the back of the knees, towards the outside. My hypothesis is that I progressed too fast with the im's, and that the other activities are now sustaining the irritation.

If it's on the back of the knees you are probably correct in your assessments.

Tendons like to be worked otherwise they tend not to improve. With two weeks rest the inflammation in the tendon settles. The problem with a tendon injury is that there is a loss of stiffness so the tendon does not cope with the load placed on it. They are different to muscles. To restore the stiffness you need to do direct resistance training. Single leg hamstring curls and the lower iMs are great for this.

If you keep doing what you are doing you may be no better in 12 months. Especially at your age. I made the same mistake with my patella and Achilles' tendons. They were slowly improving after 12-18 months of reduced activity. With the right stimulus they improved dramatically with a few weeks.

Yeah, I know that just leaving them alone won't heal them. A stimulus is needed to provide inflammation and subsequent healing. I'm just navigating how much stimulus to provide. I'm sure it'll bet better eventually, I'm pretty careful not to do anything that triggers pain. Thanks!

Mark, I'm having similar pains in the flexor tendons at my wrist. They only hurt with palms flat on the ground and weight applied or when doing loaded wrist flexion like in the fingertip push-ups from H1. I've rested for 2 weeks so now would you recommend doing earlier pe's for sPl and HS? Thanks!

xray said:

Mark, I'm having similar pains in the flexor tendons at my wrist. They only hurt with palms flat on the ground and weight applied or when doing loaded wrist flexion like in the fingertip push-ups from H1. I've rested for 2 weeks so now would you recommend doing earlier pe's for sPl and HS? Thanks!

Yes. Use these early PEs and iM as they are great for rehab.

Thanks mark. You are a great asset to the community!

Mark, interested in the achilles exercises that worked so well for you, cheers

Macca said:

Mark, interested in the achilles exercises that worked so well for you, cheers

I did full ROM single leg calf raises and bent leg calf raises. Don't skip the bent leg calf raises as you need to work on the soleus muscle. If you have insertional (at the heel) achilles tendinopathy do the calf raises on on the floor. I do these 3 days a week with the rep range 5-15 for only one set. I also do double unders 1-2 a week for the plyometrics. This could be replaced with any form of jumping that is at your level.

If you have access to a gym you can use a leg press for the straight leg calf raises and the bent leg calf raise machine.

I am excited to see what the movement series has to offer in regards to plyometric exercises. I am sure there will be some really good progressions to work on.

Resurrecting thread.

 

Like many, I've progressed rapidly through the SLS path. And, like many, too rapidly for the hamstring. Recently I've experienced some weird pain in the back of the knee toward the inside. I am at SLS/SE4 and now got a (pre-)injury through SLS/SE4>iM. So I tried going back to SLS/SE1>iM and I could manage it very good. Well actually, I think that I have totally overwhelmed the hamstring since I learned today that today has been the first time I have done SLS/SE1>iM without using the arms to assist. So if I am to be honest with myself I will start over from SE1>iM. But I am still happy for learning this fact though. It feels so good to do an exercise perfectly. But I do not intend to go back on the SLS/SE, only the iM. Also I wouldn't call it that I've been cheating but that I have been learning. I am convinced that many have done the same thing: "Having to take steps backward in SLS iM but staying on the SLS/PE or SLS/SE." Right?

 

To be clear about my intension... You who have done this, or have an opinion about this: What are your thoughts on remaining unsynchronized in the SLS exercise after going backwards in the SLS>iM ladder?

 

Thanks your joining the discussion.

I'm rather unqualified, but yes, I'm currently doing 4x4 steady state on SE5, and have gone way back with the iM's, to re/prehab the hamstring tendons. It's going rather well, the pain has disappeared, and now I'm working up to double the volume required for the iM's, before I move further up the iM progressions.

I don't know what Coach's stance on this is, but I find that some of the SLS SE>iMs are definitely strength elements and that maybe using the same programming as the actual SEs would help. SE3>iM went fine for me and I thought SE4>iM would be okay. Still, I eased into it by not leaning so much so it wouldn't be too demanding on the tendons. That went well at first, but when I actually increased the lean so it would match the video, I quickly started to develop slight pain behind the knees.

Now I don't know if that's because SE3>iM isn't properly mastered (maybe too much hand assistance) or anything else, but I think doing at minimum 3x5 (if on week 1) and then directly 5x5 on week 2 is a bit too much. Going 3x1 then 5x1 and then 3x2 and so on just like with the SEs just seems a better idea to me, but I might be wrong. I'm sure it's not bad anyway so that's what I'll be doing.

Bro said:

I don't know what Coach's stance on this is, but I find that some of the SLS SE>iMs are definitely strength elements and that maybe using the same programming as the actual SEs would help. SE3>iM went fine for me and I thought SE4>iM would be okay. Still, I eased into it by not leaning so much so it wouldn't be too demanding on the tendons. That went well at first, but when I actually increased the lean so it would match the video, I quickly started to develop slight pain behind the knees.

Now I don't know if that's because SE3>iM isn't properly mastered (maybe too much hand assistance) or anything else, but I think doing at minimum 3x5 (if on week 1) and then directly 5x5 on week 2 is a bit too much. Going 3x1 then 5x1 and then 3x2 and so on just like with the SEs just seems a better idea to me, but I might be wrong. I'm sure it's not bad anyway so that's what I'll be doing.

I had the same thought - Guess it can't hurt, they're pretty tough exercises after all.

I have come to similar thoughts as you guys. 

But now that you are already unsynchronized, would you keep going on ahead with the SE's? That is to say separately from the iM's.(?)

I stayed at SE3 for very long because of the iM but that has made me super strong and steady when lowering down in SE4. I am pretty strong and hard to push off balance when I sit on one leg. Maybe I can even do a full one legged snatch with a weighted bar lol

Another strange thing has been that sometimes I have gotten more muscle soreness in the hamstrings from sPL iM's than SLS iM's. That has made me question "the truth" of my hamstring strength. I think that I will remain at SE4 until I reach there with the iM truthfully as well. Do you think that is the right approach?

 

I know Coach has stated it being important to not go ahead with iM or PE/SE if not both have been mastered. But I have not heard his opinion on a case like this. 

I don't think you should skip ahead in the SE's. In my case, it is certainly the iM's in which I'm deficient, no reason to increase that gap by continuing to progress with the SE's.

In my opinion if you cannot master it without making the tendon reactive and painful you should not move on in the strength elements. Remember this program is about building foundational strength of the muscle and connective tissue. It is to prepare the body for the good stuff later on.

I have had to train the SLS with patella tendinopathy which has meant my progress is really slow as I am waiting for the tendon to adapt. It is frustrating but you have to train in a way that will help your body rather injure it.