Muscle mass gain with Foundation?

Hi guys,

So I know that when you want to grow, you must eat more calories than you burn etc.. But another very important factor is the hypertrophy.

I'm very skinny (167cm, 110lbs), and I know that the f-series is a pure strength based program and was not designed for targeting hypertrophy..

Thus, I'd like to know if I will still build a considerable amount of mass that will make me look more like a man with Foundation?

If I eat enough, will foundation bring me enough hypertrophy to grow?

Everyone I know keeps telling me that I should lift heavy weights to grow, but I love Bodyweight workouts so much more, it has become a passion for me and I don't want to give it up ... On the other hand, I don't want to be that little skinny, weak guy for the rest of my life...

Btw When I say gain a considerable amount of mass, I don't mean getting big like a bodybuilder, I don't even like their bodies.. I'm talking about a gymnast body, not big, but lean and impressive.

At least enough weight to look more like an adult man instead of a kid like I currently do.

As a point of reference, I am fairly skinny, though not as skinny as you are.  I started foundation at 150 lbs (5'11", 180 cm) and have gained 10 pounds (of muscle, not fat) over the past 9 months on this program.  It is designed to improve strength, not necessarily build mass, but improve body composition and definition.  You probably won't get big on this program, as that is a disadvantage in gymnastics.  Most exercises are geared towards max strength more than hypertrophy (based on rep numbers).  I would personally highly recommend it, and i think for us small guys this really goes to our strengths with the bodyweight work.

I'm sure there will be more informed members chiming in, but I would say that if your strict goal is getting more hypertrophy, you would want to at least supplement with extra bodyweight exercises using higher rep or set schemes. Search around the forum, there's lots on here...or PM me and I might be able to gather up some relevant posts I have bookmarked. In the past Coach has endorsed 10x3 schemes when a little more hypertrophy is needed...but this is for when it is needed to move to the next progression, not concerning aesthetics. 

That being said, there will definitely be hypertrophy following the Foundation series, but it typically comes slower as you are growing at a balanced rate to that of your mobility and other muscle groups. By going this route, you are going to have more strength, be able to move your body in a much more efficient way (not to mention many different ways), and, probably most important, be less likely to suffer injury further down the line.

Don't worry about hypertrophy at this stage of your training.

You need to take care of first things first. And for now that means mastering the basics. Size will come later; not before.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Don't worry about hypertrophy at this stage of your training.

You need to take care of first things first. And for now that means mastering the basics. Size will come later; not before.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That's exactly what I thought.. My guess is that mass comes with the more advanced extreme calisthenics, not with the very basics.

Mabey I could add some supplement exercises after the foundation work? with hypertrophy rep range obv.

also, I read that using weights is counter productive if it's done along with foundation, is this true or can I supplement it with weights?

You are still trying to wiggle out of making GST basics your primary focus. If you have extra energy, instead of attempting to supplement with more advanced work, simply apply that energy to mastering Foundation so you can move on to the next stage of your training

You need to accept that there are no shortcuts. No magic bullets. The sooner you accept this, the faster you will get where you are trying to go.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

You are still trying to wiggle out of making GST basics your primary focus. If you have extra energy, instead of attempting to supplement with more advanced work, simply apply that energy to mastering Foundation so you can move on to the next stage of your training

You need to accept that there are no shortcuts. No magic bullets. The sooner you accept this, the faster you will get where you are trying to go.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

thank you for the wise words. I think I will follow your recommendations and concentrate on the basics. I will soon be able to afford the foundation, and this will be my priority!

Thank you.

hype said:

thank you for the wise words. I think I will follow your recommendations and concentrate on the basics. I will soon be able to afford the foundation, and this will be my priority!

 

Thank you.

It's not like there WON'T be physique changes/gains, it just won't be as dramatic as it will be once you clear Foundation and move to Rings and Dynamic work as your central focus Basic strength first.

Completing the Foundation standard gives you access to much more powerful tools to make those changes and reap max benefits. Patience; pay your dues, and sooner than you think you'll get to have it all and feel amazing to boot

Jon Douglas said:

It's not like there WON'T be physique changes/gains, it just won't be as dramatic as it will be once you clear Foundation and move to Rings and Dynamic work as your central focus Basic strength first.

Completing the Foundation standard gives you access to much more powerful tools to make those changes and reap max benefits. Patience; pay your dues, and sooner than you think you'll get to have it all and feel amazing to boot

Haha you guys always have the good words motivate me like crazy! I guess that it will be a long process, but I'm pretty sure it'll be all worth it now !

I don't know how old you are but you will also grow in body structure as you age depending on your level of activity, long bone length stops at around 20 for males but bone mass is around 30. "Girls and boys and young adults who exercises regularly achieve greater peak bone mass than those who do not" Something to consider. 

MattProulx said:

I don't know how old you are but you will also grow in body structure as you age depending on your level of activity, long bone length stops at around 20 for males but bone mass is around 30. "Girls and boys and young adults who exercises regularly achieve greater peak bone mass than those who do not" Something to consider.

Actually I'm 18 years old... Been training hardcore since a year, and I gained A LOT of strength (i can back lever, do 10 bar muscle ups, 25 full ROM pull ups, dip 2 plates, etc) but havn't gained any mass -.-. I'm a pure ectomorph, skinny frame, flat chest, very hard gainer, 167cm 50kg...

hype said:

Actually I'm 18 years old... Been training hardcore since a year, and I gained A LOT of strength (i can back lever, do 10 bar muscle ups, 25 full ROM pull ups, dip 2 plates, etc) but havn't gained any mass -.-. I'm a pure ectomorph, skinny frame, flat chest, very hard gainer, 167cm 50kg...

It probably wouldn't hurt you to eat more then, at your age you are going to be way more active and so is your metabolism. I wasn't very big at 18 myself, probably 57kg and 167cm and couldn't gain a single pound and was eating everything known to make you fat and die. But I grew into myself finally at 26 and weighed at most 70kg last spring, now I have to watch what I eat. Keep working it will come. Could be worse you be be tall and skinny lol. 

Haha that's exactly me, No matter what I eat, even the most caloric thing you can find won't make me gain a single pound xd it's nice to know I'm not alone, and that it will come later ! And yeah I'm small, though this makes you look even weaker :/

Thanks for sharing

If gaining mass is your primary interest for the moment, you may want to look in to an alternative, like Starting Strength. Mark Rippetoes clients who came in at similar weights as your own apparently say 40+ pounds of gains in their first year, with many getting 60. If you're interested in doing gymnastics after that, you're not going to be disadvantaged as there are many high level gymnasts around the 150-160 range.

Hypertrophy and strength are not fully separable. There is a limit to how much strength you can gain without hypertrophy, and all hypertrophy will come with increased muscular power, which increases your potential for maximal and explosive strength. 

If you progress through Foundation, you will gain mass. Not as much as you would have from a dedicated body-building program, but you will have larger, more defined muscles. 

Doesn't it also depend on your 'base' weight? I mean, if you're relatively skinny, you probably won't need an awful lot of muscle to move your body through space. Some of the lighter people here can do some very impressive stuff (FL, sPL), but are by no means huge.

On the other hand, I assume that I, @ 82 kg, will have to develop some serious muscle mass to eventually crank out e.g. hollow back presses at mastery levels. Those even heavier will of course be proportionally more challenged.

I'm afraid of myself when I pass thought the SE of Foundation, Rings, Movement, etc. I'm already bigger and leaner (1,79 @ 84kg) and with just only F1 and very basic exercises I  have put on mass not a bunch but enough to see the difference before Foundation.

When I do rings... my goodness.

But as Coach says, first things first.

instead of hypertrophy i prefer to talk with different terms. there is little a semantic difference that can lead to confusion. hypertrophy is usually associated with 2 things:

-increase cross sectional area of muscle due to increase number of fibers

-increase cross sectional area of muscle due to increase energy storage.

the most common cases is the second one. the first one comes with lots of training combined with strength exercises.

the most recognized result with strength training is associated with muscle TONE. as i said is semantic matter. tone reflect exactly the level of neuromuscular reflex when you are resting. what actually can changes the reflex is strength training, since different adaptations can increase the resting edge of muscles activity. 

the fact that gymnast are impressively ripped and toned is most due to strength training, the biggest gymnast as the rings specialist sometime works to failure or in latacid range.

Adriano Augusto said:

I'm afraid of myself when I pass thought the SE of Foundation, Rings, Movement, etc. I'm already bigger and leaner (1,79 @ 84kg) and with just only F1 and very basic exercises I  have put on mass not a bunch but enough to see the difference before Foundation.

 

When I do rings... my goodness.

 

But as Coach says, first things first.

I am about the same weight and height as you and I am not even halfway through F1 yet and I am also seeing a difference in muscle mass as well, especially the traps, shoulders and triceps area. Once F4 is done I assume I will look like a totally different person 

I would like to add, that many people seem to think that basic exercises don't add muscle mass. Especially when it comes to very beginners, it's a little bit frustrating that they're thinking like "oh, it's only strength training so the hypertrophy is negligible" or "i'm training for size not for strength", when the reality is at the beginning stages pretty much ANY exercise will make you gain muscle mass. 

To the OP, for someone skinny such as yourself, don't worry too much about whether the training is for pure strength or for hypertrophy. Honestly, you will be gaining muscle mass AND pure strength with most training (as long as it's not in the hundreds of reps). 

When you get more advanced, then you can train with advanced training methods (ie. considering rest times, no. of sets, no. of reps, technique order). Just do what Coach Sommer is recommending and master the basics first dude. 

Good luck man!

alex87 said:

instead of hypertrophy i prefer to talk with different terms. there is little a semantic difference that can lead to confusion. hypertrophy is usually associated with 2 things:

-increase cross sectional area of muscle due to increase number of fibers

-increase cross sectional area of muscle due to increase energy storage.

the most common cases is the second one. the first one comes with lots of training combined with strength exercises.

the most recognized result with strength training is associated with muscle TONE. as i said is semantic matter. tone reflect exactly the level of neuromuscular reflex when you are resting. what actually can changes the reflex is strength training, since different adaptations can increase the resting edge of muscles activity. 

the fact that gymnast are impressively ripped and toned is most due to strength training, the biggest gymnast as the rings specialist sometime works to failure or in latacid range.

This is not quite incorrect and a bit misleading.  I believe you are getting a few things confused.

First of all there is hypertrophy which is by definition an increase in size (not number)

• Sarcoplasmic - Increase in fluid and thus increase in metabolites in the muscle cells. Usually accompanied by increase in mitochondria depending on training stimulus
• Myofibrillar - increase in size of muscle fibers (results in strength increase as well as size)

Then there is hyperplasia which is what I think you are confused about.  This is the increase in the number of muscle cells and thusly fibers.

The ratio of hypertrophy types will be dictated by your training regimen and to some extent genetics.  Hyperplasia is much less common and some people still argue over whether it happens to any significant extent at all.

In the end this doesn't really change any of the advice given in this thread. 

my point about "n° of fibers"is directly correlated with adaptation, not really involved with "i have 100 more fibers then one week ago". probably i had to specify "increased the number of muscles fibers from one type to another so that there is a major numbers for our purpose BUT the total number remain the same". that is what usually happens in the first period in de-trained people who could experiment some muscle gain with GST.

i like your distinction above...last time i used it...cannot remember. unfortunately with bbing guys is not useful use medical terms...they don't need them....and then i forgive the definitions! 

My advice: take ALL of that extra energy you have after F1 workouts and apply it toward supplemental mobility and flexibility training.  Stretch One, when it is released, will be a great investment.

Can one use gymnastic exercises to build muscles(I don't mean as effective as muscle building program with weights, but can bodyweight exercises still make me build muscles just at a slower rate?)
Thank you guys