Training on an empty stomach/ Intermittent Fasting

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Yeah, but they are probably not "dieting", like most people who get into IF are. They are eating for performance and the way they look reflects that they are professional athletes. But if I start out at my 15% body fat and want to get down to say, 8% by using IF - it will mean underfeeding myself to some degree, which will affect my performance. Maybe not at reasonably hard levels of effort, but when I get close to max, it will. Coach's athletes are not eating down like that (I guess) - they already are there and are maintaining cause they have their lifestyle dialed in and train hard.

Also, it's a matter of how quickly you want those bodyfat results - if you have time and go for it slowly, there will be less tradeoff vs performance. If you are impatient and axe down hard on the body composition, it will be a higher tradeoff.

[Douglas Wadle]

Here are some articles for perusal. It's important to keep in mind this data is for optimal performance and recovery. If folks are more interested in weight loss then their goals may be different. The first link is a good review article written for lay people. Focus on carb depletion and immune suppression. Glutaminne depletion may also be a causative factor in the immune suppression that comes from exercise, particularly fasting exercise. This is why a lot of folks take BCAA's.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/exercise-stress.html

The other 2 articles require access so you likely will have trouble viewing more than the abstract. However, their concepts are covered in the first article above.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/poi/S0899900702007542

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640419108729865

[Luka Kopusar]

i have a question about IF and BCAA consumption before workout. 

Is there any other "natural" food that could have at least the same output that has BCAA? Im interested in IF but im not into industry food like powders and such. 

 

 

[Douglas Wadle]

just to be clear, you don't have to take BCAA powders to get BCAA.  They occur in natural foods we eat, especially red meat, dairy, eggs, and also fish and chicken.  They are considered "essential" amino acids simply because our bodies don't make them and we have to get them from diet.  Tougher for vegetarians, but soy protein contains them as well, and in pretty decent amounts.

[Luka Kopusar]

yes of course, that it is in those food groups but eating those before workout you either break the fast or you cant work on full stmoach(15min pre workout), so i was just asking if there anything exist that could help you like BCAA or should i just workout while fasting.

 

[Douglas Wadle]

As I mentioned above, I would not work out fasting. I don't think it's helpful, I think it impedes strength gains, and I think it makes you prone to illness. I see no upside.

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

If you don't want to take BCAAs, you can switch for a whey protein. It won't be quite the same, but you are in reality breaking your fast with BCAAs also (I think I remember reading Martin Berkhan saying so, any way - but that it was not so much that it would be a big deal and that getting some AAs in before training was to important to skip). If you want to come as close to BCAAs as possible, maybe get a CFM whey product or something.

There is no natural food that will be absorbed in the same way as a BCAA, since you would have to eat a protein source which would then be split into AAs. But I guess egg whites could be a reasonable substitute since they are mostly protein and pretty gooey so they will be more easily digested than a more solid food.

It's not exactly black magic, I don't think it's important to do it exactly to the T - it's not an either/or thing. You'll be fasting a lot and getting a lot of output from that anyway.



I disagree on some points with Nordic - and agree with some qualifiers (Thanks for the articles, I couldn't access the Science Direct and Taylor and Francis links, but the third one was good).


First, I wouldn't worry about being prone to infections on this type of training that we are doing here. I agree that it is a concern in athletic populations - but mostly because of the immunosuppressant effect of training itself - but that lifestyle (nutrition, stress and sleep) will play a role - mostly in very intense training. For example in endurance athletes, like the article mentioned used as a basis. Our kind of training, at this level - not so much. I don't think so, as long as you allow enough recovery between sessions. Another thing - in the article, they talked about days of fast and low-carbohydrate conditions. IF in terms of the Leangains protocol is neither. And I've never had any problems when I did IF, but while perhaps unscientific, I think you'll just have to try for yourself. We are each of us a little different in how we respond to different conditions.

As for being helpful - fasting does have health benefits (cardiovascular and endocrinological for example) and (perhaps more relevant in this context right here) it is a way to recompose if that is what you are looking for. It can also be a nice lifestyle for a while, if it suits you personally. I liked the increased mental acuity from fasting. It's not the only way to eat and live, but it is A way. Might be crap for some and awesome for others.

Regarding impeding strength: This can be an issue - it would certainly impede the performance of an endurance athlete, of that I feel pretty confident. But for this kind of strength training, especially at the lower levels... You'll just have to try it out and see how it feels for you. F series is strength-endurance geared in the beginning at least, so it could cut into your performance, but maybe not. If recomposing is an important point for you, the possibility of having to spend a little more time on progressions might be worth it.


I'd go with 6-8 eggwhites pre-workout instead of BCAAs and try that for a couple of months. If it doesn't work, then try whey or BCAA, if that doesn't work - maybe IF is not for you. Worst thing that can happen from experimenting is that you don't enjoy it and that it might or might not cause your training progression to proceed a little bit slower or faster depending on how you respond. But excpect the first three weeks to feel crappy either way, until you adjust to doing IF. After that it should feel very different.

[Karl-Erik Karlsen]

Oh yeah - and remember that AAs will be absorbed much more quickly by the body than either whey protein or egg whites. If you intend taking BCAAs 15min before training, I would allow 1- 1 1/2 hours for the eggs or whey. The protein needs to be cleaved into amino acids first, while the BCAAs come pre-cleaved.

[Frankincensed]

People go through phases. Chances are none of us are eating exactly the same way we were a few years ago, and won't be eating the same way a few years from now either. However one of the gold standards for excellent dietary practice is sustainability.

 

I did go through a LG phase several years ago, and it did work - and helped me gently drop around 8lbs of fat over 12 weeks. However it was not something that fit into my lifestyle and in fact after that period I dropped it and have no inclination to try again. Since then I have been basically doing the nutritiming approach, and have seen better results in that I've been able to keep it up for close to a year, AND have been able to keep my workout intensity high. I've seen better improvements in appearance and performance because of the sustainability of the practice, and ability to mesh extremely well with athletics.

 

If what you are doing is working, don't fix it. When and if you are ready for a change have a look see. It may work for you, it may not ....