MN PE5 to MN PE6: Shoulder discomfort

Hi all,

I have completed mastery of MN PE5. At the moment I cannot perform one complete rep of PE6 due to not being able to touch my toes to the bar once fully extended. I am very close and this is getting better each time I try. The problem is I am getting sore shoulders from doing this exercise.

Is it normal to experience this?

Don't know if it's normal, but I experienced this too. As an intermediate step, try and reverse the grip, as this eases the pressure on the shoulders. There are two detailed threads about mn6 on the forum, try and find them.

Thanks Ravn,

I am attempting 4 x 2 reps. I might drop this right back to 3 x 1 and try a reverse grip as well.

I have read the MN PE6 threads but not much is mentioned about the shoulders, more about compression and mobility.

I believe it's all related, Gavin.  because of having to work too hard, you're activating your shoulder muscles and causing pain.  I'm going to be on this step a long time due to the same.  I don't think it's feasible to get the degree of mobility needed here until full pike flexibility is achieved.  At least it remains a good workout for the abs even without full ROM.  Good luck with it.

I think that the less flexibility you have the more stress you put on the shoulders by forcing your toes to the bar... If you would do the same exercise lying on the floor I guess you would not have problems and the same should happen if you do HLL having good flexibility, at least this is my hope!

when I thtested this PE without having fully mastered 2 & 3 ( althoug I have 5x10+ on 4 & 5) and could not complete 5 reps due to too much stress on shoulde and upper body.

I was obviously not flexible enough and as you see in the video I was also slightly bending the legs before touching the bar:

The question is: if you ve mastered PE 3 haven't you got enough flexibility??

I hesitate to even answer this question because it's been well hashed out elsewhere, but ... PE3 shows his pike at about 90 degrees angle between his hips/low back and his thighs.  That is not enough to get PE6 range of motion.  Full pike is more like 120-150 degree angle, plenty to get PE6, so the discrepancy between the two is why a lot of folks get hung up on PE6.  Agressively seeking out and working on more pike flexibility will eventually get us there imo.

If you have sufficient ROM in PE>iM4, (meaning hands BELOW the feet), then you should have sufficient ROM to perform the exercise comfortably. Post a video of you performing iM4 to double check that you have sufficient ROM. You may want to do PE>iM 4 and 5 during your warmup to stretch out your hamstrings. 

I will try and film my PE>iM 4 tonight. Some random stranger in the gym is going to get a strange request

I agree with the above; Working hard on pike mobility has definitely decreased the load on my shoulders, so that's one thing you should focus on.

Hi guys, interesting subject and I would like to share my thoughts here. I too have experienced some soreness in the shoulders on this exercise as well as some of side lever progressions that have us hanging on the stall bars in the same manner.

I believe the soreness is due to tightness deep within the shoulder joint itself. I'm pretty sure those who feel the soreness probably have difficulty in achieving full shoulder flexion in handstand as well.

The difference between this and the Jefferson curl is which part of the body is closing the kinetic chain, and this I believe has an impact on force transference and dissipation in the body tissues. In the Jefferson curl the feet are fixed and all the force accumulates and is directed into the legs, when we lock the knees its the connective tissues in the back of the legs/knee (where we are usually tightest) that we feel it. In this exercise the hands are fixed and the forces accumulate in the arms/shoulders (shoulder where we are usually tightest).

It is normal if we have tight reconditioned connective tissue. This will take time for the connective tissues to adapt, around 6 to 7 months

I am an Osteopath in case anyone is wondering and have a particular interest in connective tissues/fascia. The foundation series is simply highlighting our current state of fascial integrity and balance, and slowly directing our bodies toward better structural balance.

Tight Deconditioned connective tissues it was meant to read

Alright guys,

Here is a vid of my PE>iM 4

http://youtu.be/aepwm9kxtis

This is performed with a 24kg kettlebell.

Thoughts/observations?

sorry, but link is not working for the video. states video is unavailable...

Set the permission to 'unlisted' rather than private. 

I have this listed as public. I'll keep trying to technical troubleshoot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AepWm9KxtIs&feature=youtu.be

I think this might work

looks like reasonable ROM to me.  Not that i'm the greatest judge here because I'm stuck at the same place you are  .

I also think is ok, ideally you could get another 1-2 cm though.

however, isn't that kettlebell too heavy? does it help you to get to that ROM or you can achieve the same without weight?

consider that in this way the gravity might be helping you quite a bit in piking, while in the HLL it works against you!

I would try to use a bar as the kettle bell grip is so narrow, it will be difficult to get your shoulders as open as when on the stall bar.

Try standing with your toes off the edge of the box and try your best to not lean backwards with your hips during the descent. If you keep your hips over your feet more it will make a difference to the stretch and allow you to fall forward and lower a little more.

Also, keep your head lowered, if you activate the muscles in the back of the neck it is difficult for the rest of the spinal muscles to relax (erector spinal). When your face and neck muscles are relaxed the rest of the spine follows ore readily.

Try the above, I'm sure they will help.

Wes

EDM said:

I also think is ok, ideally you could get another 1-2 cm though.

however, isn't that kettlebell too heavy? does it help you to get to that ROM or you can achieve the same without weight?

consider that in this way the gravity might be helping you quite a bit in piking, while in the HLL it works against you!

This is fine for the purposes of opening up ROM. Just remember you have to Jefferson curl that weight too

Thanks guys. I can work on getting another cm or so out of it.

The question for me then is if the ROM is okay, why are my shoulders hating PE6?

Also, how do I progress?

I have been attempting 4 x 2. Should I just drop it to 3 x 1?

Gavin S said:

Thanks guys. I can work on getting another cm or so out of it.

 

The question for me then is if the ROM is okay, why are my shoulders hating PE6?

 

Also, how do I progress?

 

I have been attempting 4 x 2. Should I just drop it to 3 x 1?

Because, like me, you are lifting your legs from the shoulders, instead of folding at the hips. I too have decent pike flexibility when warmed up, and should theoretically be able to do HLL, but alas it isn't so. I am guessing that being able to force my head to my knee isn't "true" flexibility, because it still takes quite an effort from my hip flexors to do so. True flexibility would entail being able to pike completely with very little resistance from the hamstrings. When hamstring resistance in not an issue, the hip flexors would be easily able to lift the legs.

I don't know what to do about it, except to keep stretching and training MN progressions.

Just my 2 cent theory.

Not necessarily Ravn. Being able to easily lay the chest/head on the legs only indicates that the Hamstrings/Hip Extensors and Lumbar Extensors accept that passive ROM freely, it says nothing about the strength of the Hip Flexors and Abdominals to be able to pull the body into that position against resistance (in this case the pull of gravity).

Just because you have passive flexibility doesn't automatically mean you also have active flexibility.

Keegan said:

Not necessarily Ravn. Being able to easily lay the chest/head on the legs only indicates that the Hamstrings/Hip Extensors and Lumbar Extensors accept that passive ROM freely, it says nothing about the strength of the Hip Flexors and Abdominals to be able to pull the body into that position against resistance (in this case the pull of gravity).

Just because you have passive flexibility doesn't automatically mean you also have active flexibility.

Yeah, I think that's been established ;-)

Thanks to Ravn and Josh Slocum, I tried to do these with an undergrip. Success. And no sore shoulders.

Now to work on the volume.