MN progrssion - advices & form checks

Hi guys,

The MN progression is the 2nd hardest one for me (after ABH!) due to some lack of mobility (I guess), so decided to rivisit everything from the beginning and seek some help from the community.

I (thought to) had mastered MN\PE1 some time ago, but looking again at it I'm still not convinced that my form is clean enough to pass:

To give you a better idea of my current mobility, this is a V-ups attempt, in my opinion still very bad:

However, when it comes to the related iMs, it seems I do a little better, i.e. with iM4 I'm able to bring wrists to the toes:

Besides that, I have mastery in PE4 and PE5, which seems to me less demanding in terms of mobility, because you only need a 90° angle between legs and torso, and can also hold L-sit for 30" without to much effort, but when it comes to bend more than 90° keeping a flat back and legs straight, here the problems starts....

I've screened the forum for a solution to this and found many hints, yet somewhat scattered around and I'm getting a little bit confused about what to do.

Would like to develop a consistent routine to improve this type of mobility in a reliable and measurable way.

Maybe we could gather everything and create a sort of summary (like the one for ABH, that was very useful), if this is indeed felt as useful for many people?

I know what you mean. I've just started MN:PE2 and I can't do a single rep, needless to say my straddle flexibility is poor and my active flexibility is even worse; sitting on the floor in a straddle I can hardly lift my legs off the floor.

What does your PE 2 and PE 2>iM look like? And for that matter what does your PE 1>iM look like? If you haven't mastered those, start there. Your weighted pike looks to me like you could not have mastered the Jefferson Curls.

PE2 is as bad as PE3, if not worse!

iM 1 & 2 should be ok, but you never know, will post a video as soon as I can.

What do you think can be improved in the pike hang? and how? would this be beneficial for PE2 & 3 as well?

This hamstring stretching video by Kit Laughlin is worth watching, perhaps the biggest limiting factor for most people is tight hamstrings, I know this is true for me as I cannot do a single rep to form with straight legs. Decided to go back and keep doing 5x15 PE1+im1&2 to keep my strength and focus on flexibility first before working on PE2.

edit: Should note for PE1 I can touch knees to chest every rep and put my palms on the floor without warming up and still have trouble doing PE2

Thanks Matt, this is surely useful, will try this strech tomorrow...

any idea how many times x week and how many sets shoudl be done? I would say every time before MN PE2, maybe 2-3 stretches per leg x 30-60 sec ?

sorry for the very basic questions, I have really no clue about stretching and don't know how to structure a routine based on a given exercise.... and I have heard a lot of weird things about stretching, from holding a position for 5 min or more, to people actually sleeping in stretching positions...

EDM said:

Thanks Matt, this is surely useful, will try this strech tomorrow...

any idea how many times x week and how many sets shoudl be done? I would say every time before MN PE2, maybe 2-3 stretches per leg x 30-60 sec ?

sorry for the very basic questions, I have really no clue about stretching and don't know how to structure a routine based on a given exercise.... and I have heard a lot of weird things about stretching, from holding a position for 5 min or more, to people actually sleeping in stretching positions...

I honestly cannot give advice on stretching (or much else) as I am brand new to it. But I do know one thing, consistency is the key, I stretch every single day now, sometimes a few times a day. But nothing extreme, mostly limbering up and then going on with the day. Especially at work if you do any physical work try to counter anything that you do for long periods by stretching the muscles being contracted.

It simply looks like you are lacking ROM.

Jefferson Curls should have had you getting your wrists to the top of the block that you are standing on. At best it looks like you are getting the heels of your hands to the block, which is also evident in your torso angle to your legs.

It looks to me like you have sufficient ROM in PE1, so I'd be interested to see PE1>iM to see if you have mastered that. If you have, then it's most likely just a hip flexor/core strength deficiency that is holding you back on PE 2 and PE 3. That should improve with time and effort.

Hamstring flexibility does hold a lot of people back, but if you are correctly "mastering" (duplicating the form in the iM vids), then passive hamstring flexibility should not be an issue in performing the PE's.

However, as Coach and others have stated many times before, passive flexibility does not necessarily mean that you can actively move through that ROM; that ability is known as Active Flexibility and is determined by the strength in the Agonists (in the case of PE 2 and PE 3 the Iliopsoas, Rectus Femoris, and Sartorius/the hip flexors and the Rectus Abdominus/core).

No amount of additional passive flexibility in and of itself is going to allow you to gain significant active flexibility.

Keegan said:

Hamstring flexibility does hold a lot of people back, but if you are correctly "mastering" (duplicating the form in the iM vids), then passive hamstring flexibility should not be an issue in performing the PE's.

However, as Coach and others have stated many times before, passive flexibility does not necessarily mean that you can actively move through that ROM; that ability is known as Active Flexibility and is determined by the strength in the Agonists (in the case of PE 2 and PE 3 the Iliopsoas, Rectus Femoris, and Sartorius/the hip flexors and the Rectus Abdominus/core).

No amount of additional passive flexibility in and of itself is going to allow you to gain significant active flexibility.

Well maybe that is my problem since my ROM in the iMs is not bad, maybe I have been focusing on the wrong thing, if so then maybe we should work on some stuff to strengthen active flexibility. 

iM1:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfm1uicTvEo

iM2:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6InrABv9XKM

Yeah, you can see that you have plenty of passive flexibility to perform PE 2 and PE 3, so if you still don't have sufficient ROM in those exercises, then the culprit is most likely not tight hamstrings, but weak hip flexors and abs.

in your videos (MN/PE1 and MN/PE3) there is a noticeably arch in the starting position, instead you should be in a hollow position to start

Keegan said:

the culprit is most likely not tight hamstrings, but weak hip flexors and abs.

True! Work the hip flexors

I have no problem doing single leg squats and can do L-sits for 10-15 seconds, but any higher than and I cannot hold, I just fall apart, so thanks for the advice, I can definitely see is as weak hip flexors now, abs I don't know possibly both. I wonder if its ok to add in something between PE1/2? Or to keep doing PE2 till I get stronger? Kinda like the saying ain't no way to do it but to do it.  Sorry to hijack the other guys thread.

If you've got PE 1 down solid you could always try doing PE 1 with the knees apart (like your legs would be in a straddle) and then trying to straighten the legs once you're at the top and doing negatives. Once that was manageable start doing the regular PE 2 movement.

Pretty sure Alex suggested something similar in another thread on the subject.

Guys,

thanks for the many advices here!

So, if I try to summarize:

1) PE1's ROM is OK - detail: arched lower back in starting position to be corrected (I expect to have no problem to do so);

2) PE iM 1 - will post a video to see if ok;

3) Understand first requisite is to have enough passive flexibility in the pike hang position / Jefferson curl. This might be limited by hamstring flexibility;

4) Assuming I get enough passive flexibility in the above, then should be able to perform PE2/3 correctly if I have enough Active flexibility = core and hip flexor strength;

As per the core I think I have plenty of strength, while I have many doubt about the hip flexor!

How can I get an idea of my hip flexor strength and improve it?

thx!

anyone have tips for working hip flexors?

I've tried a few different exercises but they don't seem to be getting any stronger. The cramping sensation is as strong as when I started. I think maybe I need to up the frequency. Can/should hip flexors be trained like many people train calves (high frequency)?

some exercises I tried:

standing leg extensions from bent knee

assisted L sit (so I could hold it in the "cramping" rom for time)

sitting leg raises

Doing those about once or twice a week has not really done any good for me. 

I've been rotating between different hip flexor exercises and I did notice small improvements over time, training them at least 4 times a week. I also just started with foam rolling, so maybe that will help as well. You can get some ideas here:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/331-active-straddle-flexibility/?p=2310

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsqhcbPVXDQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZdU08X9CVs  --- hard to see in the beginning, but he has a tennis ball between his upper thigh and trunk 

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/968-standing-leg-raise/?p=7372

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14492-i-hate-to-do-this-but-another-mnpe2-thread/?p=141773 -- some more tips around this thread as well

I'm open to more suggestions as well

Honestly the MN progressions should assess and build hip flexion strength. You can do activation or mobility exercises if you are really having a hard time feeling them activate, but I don't know if adding additional non specific strength exercises is really going to help all that much if you are already doing the MN progressions.

Maybe try doing the top of the position like a static hold, trying to hold the maximal compressed position and trying to straighten the legs AMAP while embracing the cramps. Try holding it for 10 seconds to start with. I've found that static holds work better than reps for me for developing active flexibility. Your mileage may vary though.

guys,

I' ve tested again the pike hang

to me it seems I pike enough to bring the wrist below the feet, so passive flexibility ok?

Yup, I'd say you've got enough passive flexibility. Now just work on the active part.