I hate to do this, but... another MN/PE2 thread.

As much as I really hate to be the one to (once again) start yet another thread on this issue... I'm here with yet another MN/PE2 post. I'm doing this because I honestly don't know what to do, and just can't silently try to go about continuing with things the way they are for me with this exercise.

Taking stock at almost 1 year of my F1 work, I see that I've made almost zero progress on MN/PE2. Photos below from when I first tried the exercise last feburary, from this summer, to today's workout.

So, in 11 months of consistent work, essentially zero improvment in ROM.

Now... I understand the concept of being patient, checking ego at the door... I even did my best to adopt this "invisible progress" idea that many people have mentioned in regards to this exercise. However, taking stock of 11 months of work has made me question if there is a fundamental problem with how I'm doing the exercise, and if this is a case of me spinning my wheels getting nowhere.

What have I done during these 11 months? I've worked consistent and hard at F1 and H1 (complience with the program has not been an issue). I passed MN/PE1 mastery the frist time I tried it and went to MN/PE2 the next workout. I started at week 1 and worked through all the way to week 12. I could make the reps but the ROM was exactly the same. I then repeated a mico-cycle of weeks 9-12 three times. After that, I moved down to repeating a micro-cycle of weeks 1-4 (focusing only on incresing the ROM).

I always warmed up with MN/PE1. I continued to do stiff leg windmills. I've made big progress in my Jefferson curls during this entire time.

After a few months of this, I looked at supplementary stretching, mobility, and strength exercises. I followed all of the advice given on all of the MN/PE2 threads regarding all of the possible supplementary exercises (back to wall straddle lifts, single leg straddle lfits, breaking the exercsise down into 2 seperate components and practicing those, hanging straddle leg lifts, hip flexor strengthing exercises, etc...). I experimented with different programming for all of these (before I do my MN/PE2 sets, directly after them, directly after the F1 workout, or GTG every day).

I dove into learning muscle anatomy to figure out what joints and muscles are involved, purchased and read and tried several different stretching and mobility programs, devoured Becoming a Supple Leopard and applied as much of the exercises there which I thought could apply to this exercise. Basically I tried to troubleshoot what the issue was for me. Was is joint mobility? Passive flexiblity? Active flexibility? All of the above? If so what protocol to do to fix the issues. I did rolling (both with bars and balls) as well band work. I've done consistent stretching on my hips, quads, and hamstrings, as well as straight and pancake pike positions (working on APT, keeping back straight and hinging from hips). Again I experimented with the timing and amount of the stretching (directly before doing MN/PE2, after, at night, etc...) Overall my felxibility has increased, but I've seen no carry over at all from any of these supplement exercises to the ROM in MN/PE2.

For the past 3 months I've done a daily joint mobility routine focusing on strengthing my hip flexors in the same ROM as MN/PE2. Again, no effect on ROM.

I've been dealing with long stalls in other exercises (months stuck at HBP/PE2, SLS/PE2, RC/PE3) but in each one of those I've been able to atleast see and feel some form of progress, and I have an understanding of what's going on. I can see and make changes to the form, see the effect it has. The progress is slow, sometimes "invisible", and it's hard to stay motivated sometimes. However, there is progress there, and I don't question it. I suck it and keep on keeping on.

But straddle-ups? Nope. Every workout I start fresh, but they feel exactly the same. I focus so much on trying to "feel" the exercise, activate the correct muscles, try novel ways to put myself into the position and see if I can figure out how to do it differently. 

I scour the forums every day, re-reading all of the MN/PE2 threads, checking out all of the links and suggestions posted there.

I tried dropping all of the supplementary work, clearing my head about it and coming at it with a "beginner's mind" approach.

I've followed the program as it is, as well as supplemented it according to many different suggestions, educated myself as much as I can about it, really tried to push myself more and more with "compressing", with "sitting up straighter", all of the cues that everyone mentions.

But... alas... I still have the MN/PE2 blues.

My question, I guess if I have one, is: so do I just keep going on, having faith I'll get there eventually, or... do something different? Or?

Wow, I sympathise. You've done everything to tackle it. Just two things came to mind -

1. Your form has improved, you sit up much straighter.

2. Have you felt your quads cramping at all? If so, what did you do when that happened?

Best wishes on getting a breakthrough for these.

Thanks late starter! Yes, i do feel a kind of tightness/cramping in my quads, but nothing that has ever been bad enough to make me stop the exercise. It's more of a feeling of "weakness" in those muscles, if that makes sense. In that I really have to 100% actively consciously contract with my quads and hip flexors (as well as all of the other muscles involved).

 

 

1. Your form has improved, you sit up much straighter.

Yes, your form has improved a lot! I mean, look again. In the February picture you don't point your toes and your hands don't reach the floor. In the June Pic you do both but you round your back a lot and don't sit up as much. The January Pic looks a lot cleaner, at least to me.

I don't know how much more ROM you need to pass mastery, maybe it is already enough?

Thanks JN12, i appreciate the encouragement. You are right, some things have improved. But I think the main issue regarding mastery is the angle between my legs and upper body, it should be much smaller. I think I'm about halfway to the angle in the official mastery video, and I've been stuck here for about 11 months.

Hamdi, may I point out something? 

DUDE, look at the ROM gain in your PELVIS! #highfive

you went from having it horizontal laying on the ground(from what i can interpret) to picking itself up quite a few degrees! 

edit: though i'm curious, if this is not what you are refering to, what is it you feel is holding you back? what do you feel in your body when you do Straddle ups?

what i mean by this, for example, im not at Straddle ups yet, but i play with them occasionally to see how my compression + mobility is improving and my bottleneck is how my femur glides in and out of the socket when i straddle my legs open. feels super uncomfortable sometimes. 

though this is an exageration of an example, can you identify something that makes you feel like the problem you haven't broken through?

Hey, you're right Keilani. I hadn't even noticed that about my pelvis. Hmmmm... Let me ponder that. Glad to get all this feedback about this.

Well, part of the issue for me was not evening knowing what the problem is/was. As far as I can tell, the issue is my hip flexor strength (a weakness in my upper quads). No matter how much I flex, compress, contract them, I can only manage to lift my legs up to that same angle, they wont budge any further. I assume this is due to the lack of strength in the hip flexors. But I could be wrong.

Hamdi,

The 2014 picture shows tons of improvements. Good work.

Maybe posting this on Kit Laughlin's forum might help. I've seen him help people identify issues on there.

As others said, you did improve. Those weren't 11 months with zero improvement. Don't let up! I don't know what to say to help other than that because it does seem you tried everything. I still think the hip flexors are the weak link, but damn these are annoying to get up to speed.

How does your static pancake stretch look?

How far can you go in the straddle up if you use your arms to pull your legs in closer?

That range looks good to me. Have you tried submitting a video to coach for review? I think it only costs around $10 for the analysis.

Have you tried to release the glutes/hamstrings/adductor in the straddle stretch? I sit with the lacrosse ball on the tight areas of the hamstrings in the straddle stretch. It gives me a lot more range than just regular stretching. You can also release the glutes and adductors in the straddle position so it will transfer better to the straddle up.

Have you had an assessment from a Physio? It could be something as simple as having joint mobilisation to the hip and lumbar spine. If you have stiff joints the muscles often will not release even if you stretch and massage them.

Same questions as josh slocum. Include a picture of the pancake stretch and am actual video of your straddle ups.

How about using ankle weights for a few weeks to see if it builds up the muscle as your mobility seems ok.

I do believe it's a mobility issue that's hampering your progress. 

I do not believe you're doing anything "wrong."

I do believe that your hip flexors and pelvic area was so inflexible prior to your commencement of GST and that your body is responding to the mobility training, albeit slower than you'd have liked.

I think improving your mobility and strengthening your hip flexors should be the focus of your attention, since, as you said, you achieved mastery of MN/PE1 at your first attempt.

I will be personally tackling MN/PE2 in about 3 weeks (though I achieved mastery this past weekend after wk11, I'm doing another mini-cycle to strengthen my form and to prepare for the rigors of PE2).

Finally, I might be alone here in saying this, but I'm impressed by your tenacity and actually envy you in a way, because when you finally conquer this PE, it will be the greatest feeling in the world. 

Looks like good progress to me. I'd review it. Do some pancake stretches if you haven't been doing them they also help a lot.

Thanks guys! Great to get all this feedback. I guess I need to not spend so much time stewing in frustration and negativity, and just post questions to the forum like this.

Here's a video of me doing a few reps after todays workout:

Here's a photo showing my ROM in a pancake stretch. I know I should have more APT, back should be straighter, but this was to show a similar hip/back position to the top position of the straddle up... in other words using the floor to see my actual ROM in the movement using a passive stretch (to answer the question about if I can pull my legs in closer with my arms when at the top of the movement):

Here's a video of one of the supplementary exercises I've been doing, to also show more ROM in a similar position. Once I curl up as high as I can, I then try to lower more and more vertebrae of my lower back down on to the floor while still keeping my legs at the same angle to my upper body:

For those who think that mobility and/ flexibility is the issue, could you be more specific? One problem I've had with troubleshooting this over the months is that there are many places where there could be an issue, but I'm not sure how to tell which one it is. Also, could you give me some specifics on programming for how to deal with the issues?

Mark Collins, does that mini-mastery service still exist? I can't find it anywhere on the site. Also, you suggesting to see a Physiotherapist? So potential joint stiffness somewhere could be causing the problem and they might know what to do. Also, you're saying that you get into a pancake stretch, with a lacross ball under your hamstrings? Also, how would I release my glutes and addudctors?

Yes, Bro', hip flexors are a pain. I did BtGB for 3 years prior to starting F1 last year, and there, for 3 years, I couldn't get anywhere with the straddle-L progressions.

Atticus: what would you suggest for improving mobility?

tfeal: that's something I hadn't thought of.. hmmm!

dritar: how would you suggest I program the pancake stretches? Just before I do my MN workout? Every day? For how long and how long of holds?

Nash: where is Kit's forum located, couldn't find a link to it on "http://www.kitlaughlin.com" (I've only purchsed the gymnastic sports pack from him, not the full book/DVD).

Thanks again everyone!

Ok so there is something common between all of these images.  You are curving too much in the spine and not enough at the hinge of the hips.  That much is obvious.

For you it seems to be limitation in flexibility.

First things first you need to work on Passive flexibility:

Now there are a few protocols for this.

Classic- Long holds lasting at least 1 minute at a time for at least 3 minutes a day

Better Approach- This is the one I use with people needing more pancake.

1. Warmup Period (pre WO -limber)
   • Standling straddle stretch 20seconds x2.  Reach down and relax for a bit then attempt to reach underneath yourself.  Also reach a little to each side and move a bit to get hips involved
   • Foam roll the back of the legs doing one at a time
2. Stretch Period - I do these about twice a week and do longer limber holds on other days (post-WO limber)
   •  Seated pancake stretch 30 seconds
   • After the first 30 seconds have someone pull from your chest and resist the pull by using your muscles (activation) do this for about 5 seconds
   • After 5 seconds of pulling they should release you slowly and you should continue to pull down.  Take a breath while doing this.  There should not be a large struggle.
   • Rest in new ROM for about 30 seconds.
   • Do only twice

Notes: Always keep flat back.  Start with arms in air straight above head and attempt to reach out as far as possible.  Remember goal is chest and stomach to ground, not head.  Do not pull yourself with your arms into a range of motion use your own muscles to do this.  Even passive stretching should be somewhat active.  Relax a bit once you find new ROM.  Ease out of all stretches do not jerk.  Do not perform if painful.  Be especially careful of inside of knee.  Also try feet flexed versions for a better hamstring stretch.  Stretch Groin first!

To test the active stretch lay flat on back and bring straddles legs towards yourself without rocking forward.  Attempt to hold this 10 seconds each day.  Also include hip flexor stretches to provide balance.

You're right Atticus, when I finally do get this... drinks are on me.

Thanks Daniel. That's excellent, just what I need to hear.

So when doing thse, concentrate on keeping back flat, and the movement should come from within the hip joint (hinging)? Does that mean I should have somewhat of APT as well? I cannot sit on the floor with my legs straight without having PPT. Even bending my knees all the way to my chest, I still have a hard time not rounding my pelvis under.

Nash, excellent, thanks for the link. So it's cool of me to just show up there and ask this (since I didn't buy his book yet)?

HamdiC said:

Thanks Daniel. That's excellent, just what I need to hear.

 

So when doing thse, concentrate on keeping back flat, and the movement should come from within the hip joint (hinging)? Does that mean I should have somewhat of APT as well? I cannot sit on the floor with my legs straight without having PPT. Even bending my knees all the way to my chest, I still have a hard time not rounding my pelvis under.

Lets cross that road after you make some more progress on your pancake.  Sometimes balancing stretches has many wonderful affects on people

So Daniel, you mean just to concentrate on keeping my back flat, not worry about the lower back/position of pelvis? So what I'm doing is mostly increasing flexibility in my hamstrings with what you are recommending?

HamdiC said:

So Daniel, you mean just to concentrate on keeping my back flat, not worry about the lower back/position of pelvis? So what I'm doing is mostly increasing flexibility in my hamstrings with what you are recommending?

Exactly. Do this for at least a month. I suspect you will find yourself in a much better place then.

I would email Cory about the mini mastery.

With the pancake stretch put the lacrosse ball anywhere from the ishial tuberosity(bum bone) to the posterior knee. You will not be able to do a full range stretch, but you can put enough tension on the muscle to highlight where you are restricted. When you find the spot move the leg side to side.

With the gluteals lay on the back with the legs up the wall in the straddle position. Stick lacrosse ball in the glutes and go looking for any restrictions.

With adductors go into the pancake and use your fingers to release the adductors.

If you have any latent trigger points, fibrotic muscle and poor gliding of the soft tissue stretching will normally not release these areas. You will normally stretch around the tight spot as the body likes the path of least resistance.

If you are not getting progress with these self releases and stretching then get a check up by a Physio to see if you have any underlying joint restrictions that is holding you back.

HamdiC said:

Atticus: what would you suggest for improving mobility?

 

Here are my suggestions with respect to improving mobility and hip flexor strength.

* When I say mobility and weakness of "hip flexors" in relation to MN/PE2, I'm primarily referring to the iliopsoas and iliacus muscles and the sartorius muscle. *  (And part of the strengthening process of these muscles entails making them more flexible!)

** Note that the suggestions by AdrianoFlo to have back against wall and legs in straddle, and then raise legs as far up as you can and hold for 10 secs or more, as well as Daniel Burnham's method of raising legs in straddle while hands are as far away from body as is practical, are just as good.

1. Exercise A

a) Kneel on both legs.

b) Elongate the right leg making it completely straight, but leaving the right foot on the ground.

c) Raise right leg, while keeping the right knee locked, until it is completely horizontal with the ground. Hold for about 20-30 seconds if you can.

d) Repeat with opposite leg.

** Try to maintain a PPT at all times while doing this exercise **

What this exercise accomplishes

You will stretch the psoas, iliacus, on the sitting leg, while you will be contracting the same muscles on the raised leg. This static hold will also burn your quads big time, but no worries, they're getting stronger.

2. Exercise B.

Repeat exercise "A" except now with the raised leg being raised in straddle.

If both exercises are too easy, you can add some ankle weights to the raised leg, hold the raised leg for longer than 30 seconds, or you can reduce the angle between the femur and tibia of the kneeling leg.

(Hope this isn't confusing.)

Best,