Jefferson curls make me nervous

I read so much about avoiding spinal flexion and it seems some high level strength coaches feel very strongly about this. I have also seen Stuart McGill caution against too much spinal flexion. I don't seem to be the "flexion intolerant" type but I don't want to pursue something that will lead to problems later on.

I guess I'm looking for evidence or reassurance that this is a safe exercise. It felt fine when I tried it but the cautions against spinal flexion seem to be in terms of repeated exposure over time.

Please convince me that this is a safe exercise.

There is a very thorough thread about this in the F1 forum. Try the search function. See you over there :-)

You have to take into account the type of population that Stuart McGill deals with, he deals with the "general" population. You can't base your treatment protocols on the average person because by default, the average person is "unhealthy." I'd like to say that the average person in GB cares a lot more about their basic joint health than people the average person, yet look at the amount of people here that can't perform basic mobility exercises even in F1.

So an example of what Stuart McGill is doing is saying people whose knee problems doesn't allow them to squat, shouldn't be squatting into their knee problems are fixed. That doesn't mean everybody shouldn't squat. You'd also have to consider that the average fitness population uses weight. Doing barbell lower body work like deadlifts or squats for example while have lumbar spine flexed is unsafe because the heavier the weight the more force placed on the lumbar spine. However lumbar spine flexion is different to spinal flexion. PTs like Gray Cook (who I also place with McGill as the top echelon of PT's) believe that at minimum you should be able to touch your toes (spinal flexion) before you have the minimum requirements to deadlift.

Jefferson curls are a prehabilitative movement. The whole point is to develop strength in an area where the body is normally weak. You will want to start at a very low weight (even just bodyweight if you're very worried), and slowly build up the weight. 

The Hansenator said:

Please convince me that this is a safe exercise.

Sorry but, was anyone else thinking ... NO. Just follow Coaches lead and you will be FINE.

Its the classic approach of "you explain everything and answer all my fears and doubts" but you know, following a teacher is none of those things. The answer to your questions, doubts, and fears lies in Coaches disciples. Are they ok? are they strong? Has Coach tried and tested ALL of these moves for YEARS? YES. So, to be honest, my friend, no, YOU have to convince something to Coach, he or anyone else here does not have to convince you of anything. When you have proven to Coach you have surrendered to his will, then you will start to get gems of wisdom from all this.

Sorry this isn't all your doing, i see way too many post's about this similar topic of questioning the material.

I disagree with you, RJS, on this one.  I don't think Hansenator was implying he knows more than coach. He was simply asking to understand why when there is so much other information out there to the contrary.  It's always safe and a good idea to understand why you are doing things.  It's like a patient blindly following what their doctor tells them to do because "she's the doctor and should know".  The patient is much more likely to do what they need to do if they understand why.  Same with something like this.  Granted, Coach doesn't need to answer every little question people have, but it's very reasonable to ask for clarification.  I was initially concerned about stretching the spinal ligaments when i started JC's.  However, with some research on this issue i've become comfortable understanding why the JC is safe and why other types of movements may not be.  I agree coach knows what he's doing, but i highly disagree with blindly following some instruction.  After all, think of all the things that were accepted standards in the past that are now considered passe or even downright dangerous. 

RJS said:

Sorry but, was anyone else thinking ... NO. Just follow Coaches lead and you will be FINE.

Its the classic approach of "you explain everything and answer all my fears and doubts" but you know, following a teacher is none of those things. The answer to your questions, doubts, and fears lies in Coaches disciples. Are they ok? are they strong? Has Coach tried and tested ALL of these moves for YEARS? YES. So, to be honest, my friend, no, YOU have to convince something to Coach, he or anyone else here does not have to convince you of anything. When you have proven to Coach you have surrendered to his will, then you will start to get gems of wisdom from all this.

Sorry this isn't all your doing, i see way too many post's about this similar topic of questioning the material.

MT Nordic said:

I disagree with you, RJS, on this one.  I don't think Hansenator was implying he knows more than coach. He was simply asking to understand why when there is so much other information out there to the contrary.  It's always safe and a good idea to understand why you are doing things.  It's like a patient blindly following what their doctor tells them to do because "she's the doctor and should know".  The patient is much more likely to do what they need to do if they understand why.  Same with something like this.  Granted, Coach doesn't need to answer every little question people have, but it's very reasonable to ask for clarification.  I was initially concerned about stretching the spinal ligaments when i started JC's.  However, with some research on this issue i've become comfortable understanding why the JC is safe and why other types of movements may not be.  I agree coach knows what he's doing, but i highly disagree with blindly following some instruction.  After all, think of all the things that were accepted standards in the past that are now considered passe or even downright dangerous. 

Also, it should be noted that the Jefferson Curl is not perfectly safe. It can be dangerous if you attempt to use too much weight. You need to start low and very slowly build your way up. 

The Jefferson Curl is a controlled exercise that is to be done pain free. It is safe if done correctly with the appropriate load for you. The spine is designed to flex and extend, not to be locked in neutral all the time and only relying on the hips for mobility.

Is there scientific proof? No, as it would be too hard to research. Just as McGills theories have no randomized controlled trials as it is too hard to research.

You will just have to trust Coach that in his many years of experience it is a beneficial exercise. If it caused injuries he would not expose us zombies to it. Also there is a lot of people on this forum who are older and stiffer than young gymnasts and we are going well. No disc injuries from the Jefferson Curls that I have heard of.

Be careful and progress slowly. I started on 2.5kg and am now up to 45kg. This took 6-9 months. I use it in my warm ups twice a week as it really helps improve flexion mobility. I increase by 1.25-2.5kg when I feel ready.

What is the suggested weight? I used 20kg the other day and it felt fine. I'm only on week two though so I'm not sure if this is unwise...

I had a bit of discomfort when I first began, but it subsided after two-three workouts. Probably because I started out with 16 kg. I now do 42 kg as MN warmup, and it feels fine very good. In fact, some of the MN stallbar pike stretches feel like they load the spine significantly harder than a 42 kg Jefferson curl.

Perhaps 20kg is too much for a startig weight though? 5kg or 10kg might be more sensible?

Murray Truelove said:

Perhaps 20kg is too much for a startig weight though? 5kg or 10kg might be more sensible?

everyone has said the most important thing aside from the weight and it's do it intuitively. 

if you feel you are doing too much with 20kg in your workout, warm up with a smaller weight. 

KeilaniG said:

everyone has said the most important thing aside from the weight and it's do it intuitively.

if you feel you are doing too much with 20kg in your workout, warm up with a smaller weight.

That's a good idea. I just don't want to over do it. For example with HBP:IM2 it was easy to tell how much weight was too little or too much.

It would be good in the course material to have a suggested starting and goal weight for the IM's. MN:IM1 for instance, I'm not sure if I'm using enough (about 5kg the same I use for HBP:IM2/3).

Murray Truelove said:

That's a good idea. I just don't want to over do it. For example with HBP:IM2 it was easy to tell how much weight was too little or too much.

It would be good in the course material to have a suggested starting and goal weight for the IM's. MN:IM1 for instance, I'm not sure if I'm using enough (about 5kg the same I use for HBP:IM2/3).

if you've had past injuries, danger can be justified but how much more careful can you get than microloading the weight? 

so relax....and enjoy the cramps along the entirety of your back/soul.  

KeilaniG said:

if you've had past injuries, danger can be justified but how much more careful can you get than microloading the weight?

so relax....and enjoy the cramps along the entirety of your back/soul.

Cheers. I've got these later today -I'm hoping that one day I'll be able to touch my toes.

Murray Truelove said:

That's a good idea. I just don't want to over do it. For example with HBP:IM2 it was easy to tell how much weight was too little or too much.

It would be good in the course material to have a suggested starting and goal weight for the IM's. MN:IM1 for instance, I'm not sure if I'm using enough (about 5kg the same I use for HBP:IM2/3).

I like going heavy on the stiff legged windmill, currently using 32 kg, up from 16 when I started. Feels good, and really pushes you into the stretch. Also, a heavy weight ensures the arms are vertical, it's difficult to have bad form with 32 kg.

32kg o_0 that's nearly half my weight. I could probably do with using more than 5kg...

Murray Truelove said:

32kg o_0 that's nearly half my weight. I could probably do with using more than 5kg...

Ideally you should eventually build up to bodyweight. 

Joshua Slocum said:

Ideally you should eventually build up to bodyweight.

Body weight wind mills? Where do you guys find this information? I do my best to read all the threads...

Murray Truelove said:

Body weight wind mills? Where do you guys find this information? I do my best to read all the threads...

Oh, sorry, I did not read the post you were quoting. Ideally you'd build up to bodyweight Jefferson Curls. 

After what I've been reading and hearing about spinal flexion, I just don't want to herniate a disk or something. It sounds like that isn't really happening to people so maybe I'm just reacting to alarmist material going around. I think I'll start with just a broom handle though until I get more comfortable with the exercise.

Joshua Slocum said:

Oh, sorry, I did not read the post you were quoting. Ideally you'd build up to bodyweight Jefferson Curls.

Lol I'm glad you replied before I tried that one.

Build up to body weight Jefferson curls though.

RJS said:

Sorry but, was anyone else thinking ... NO. Just follow Coaches lead and you will be FINE.

Its the classic approach of "you explain everything and answer all my fears and doubts" but you know, following a teacher is none of those things. The answer to your questions, doubts, and fears lies in Coaches disciples. Are they ok? are they strong? Has Coach tried and tested ALL of these moves for YEARS? YES. So, to be honest, my friend, no, YOU have to convince something to Coach, he or anyone else here does not have to convince you of anything. When you have proven to Coach you have surrendered to his will, then you will start to get gems of wisdom from all this.

Sorry this isn't all your doing, i see way too many post's about this similar topic of questioning the material.

Sorry if this got out of hand dudes. Perhaps im projecting too much, perhaps im pushing my standards too hard, perhaps, im seriously sleep deprived! Basically, im kind of old school and hardcore at the same time i.e. stubborn and dum-dum. I realize theres more than one way to look at this whole thing. Good to be careful dudes, but remember the underlying principle of this course, Coach is not stubborn nor is he a dum- dum, so pay close attention to his post's and guidelines on these matters and you will be fine, i stick to my convictions on that one.

RJS said:

Sorry but, was anyone else thinking ... NO. Just follow Coaches lead and you will be FINE.

....

Sorry this isn't all your doing, i see way too many post's about this similar topic of questioning the material.

Personally I think there are too many 'just do what you're told' type posts. 

The original post questioning the material has elicited  many interesting responses and I learnt valuable things by reading them.  

The 'just do what Coach says and don't question the material' posts never lead to any interesting responses. At best you get more people doing the 'my teacher is better then your teacher' argument.  

Read Coach's book - it is quite clear that he arrived at his training method by questioning received wisdom, not by blindly following it.  

It seems he puts a lot of thought into choosing exercises and progressions, and there can be great benefit in knowing the thinking and principals behind those choices.

There is a big difference between questioning someone because you think what they are saying is stupid (the petulant teenager) and questioning someone because you believe they are intelligent and wise and are likely to have a really good answer that you want to know.   

The Hansenator said:

After what I've been reading and hearing about spinal flexion, I just don't want to herniate a disk or something. It sounds like that isn't really happening to people so maybe I'm just reacting to alarmist material going around. I think I'll start with just a broom handle though until I get more comfortable with the exercise.

As Joshua said, this can be a dangerous exercise.  I injured myself with it, probably by doing the movement too quickly.  If I had read this thread 1st I might have saved myself an injury.    Start slow, and light, build up gradually.

I did a lot of reading about this because of similar concerns, after getting injured.  Stuart McGill uses a credit card as his metaphor for the back - if you keep bending it in the same place it weakens and eventually snaps.  It seemed to me a stupid analogy since you could say the same thing about your elbow or any other joint.  Clearly the body (unlike a credit card) has the capability to adapt to a movement and get stronger over time, not weaker.  The key is slow, gradual progression.  To quote from the course material:

"Remember that mobility is not a maximal strength endeavour, but one of slow and steady progress."

If someone is really worried they could get a scan on the health of their discs and then rescan after a few months and compare spinal health.