Protein supplementation in addition to 200 g/day?

Joshua Naterman said:

I personally agree with this statement. You're looking for a pulse of about 3g of rapidly absorbed leucine, and that's about what you get from 30g of high quality whey protein.

 

When I am using a slower protein, like solid food and a mixed meal around the PWO period (or a slow protein like casein), I just take a half teaspoon of L-leucine with it. Dissolved in liquid, it hits the gut first (before the solid components of a meal, just as whey protein will) and kick-starts protein synthesis. The amino acid release from the food will then sustain protein synthesis.

 

If you're REALLy trying to max out results, you can always try a single scoop of whey isolate or something like that right after the workout, but i would NOT do any more than that. You are seriously getting plenty, and it is doubtful as to whether the PWO whey will actually make a noticeable difference with your current diet.

 

This, of course, assuming that your protein is split into a number of 30-40g servings. If you have a giant meal with like 80g of protein, your effective protein intake will be 30-40g lower than it appears.

 

For details on this: http://foodandsport.com/uploads/3/0/2/0/3020192/benardot-energy_thermodynamics_revisited-j_exercise_science_and_health-2013.pdf

That was an interesting read, thanks for the link. It was new to me that an energy deficit is associated with higher body fat percentage. Kind off goes against the idea of fasting, I'd assume.

Daniel Burnham said:

By value I am assuming you mean muscle building "power" and the answer to that would be yes.  If you mean value by cost then no.  Whey is pretty much the cheapest source of leucine you can buy.  What you are doing by taking other amino acids with the plant protein is trying to recreate a complete source.  Leucine is a good one to add for the reasons I mentioned above.  Of course there are always things to consider when trying to recreate real food and we just cant possibly do it close enough to match how our body expects food to come in.  We can play with things to help make certain parts more efficient or closer to what we want but real food always wins.   Otherwise we could all be drinking soylent only and using that for all of our nutritional needs.

 

In this case, one thing that immediately comes to mind is the difference in release and uptake between the eaten protein and the added amino acids.

 

Josh may have more info.

I think this is a great explanation.

We rely on a series of enzymes to reduce whole proteins down to their individual amino acids, so when you add something like 2g of leucine to a food you are kind of skipping a bunch of steps. It is highly likely that you will see the leucine absorb first, because experimental evidence in humans shows us that the liquid component of meals empties first, with solid components essentially being emptied according to size of the chewed particles, sufficient water present in the stomach, and solubility of each component. It's not quite as simple as "It's all in there together, so it all comes out together at the same time."

Depending on what you're eating, I believe the two amino acids that veggie protein sources are MOST deficient in are either methionine or lysine. Both are essential, meaning we cannot make them ourselves because we do not have codes for them in our genetic structure. You either eat them, or you don't have them at all. It doesn't take much to right the balance, maybe 1g of each per meal at the most.

At this point we're getting close to talking about medical usage of food. I don't want to go too deeply into this, but I think this serves as a good place for people to say "Hmm. I better go learn about the amino acid profiles of my protein sources and compare. How much of each does it take for me to hit a 3g of leucine threshold? How does the methionine and lysine content compare to animal protein sources per 100g of protein?"

Answering those 2 questions will allow you to take a very targeted approach at fine-tuning your nutrition. This is, in my opinion, the correct way to take advantage of supplementation.

Ravn said:

That was an interesting read, thanks for the link. It was new to me that an energy deficit is associated with higher body fat percentage. Kind off goes against the idea of fasting, I'd assume.

You're welcome. 

It is good to pay close attention to what is being done with the best athletes to affect body composition, as well as high school and college athletes who pretty much represent the general population). This area of research has examined, and been applied to, all levels of physical prowess and found to have the same effect across the board.

I am very, very careful about which ideas I allow to influence my decision making, and I encourage everyone to be similarly cautious. Powerful persuasion skills and a reliance on statistical analysis in research that does not reflect the majority of findings (and typically has not been replicated) are two marks of a savvy salesman. They make you think you have stumbled onto something that all other scientists have somehow missed, even those working with the best athletes in the world. As a general statement, I would not buy into what that group is selling you.

Benardot is a top tier guy, works with top tier athletes as well as Georgia State University athletes (who, in general, are not exactly the genetic elite) and gets remarkable results every time. His research is actually supported by the body of science that is out there AND real world performance and body recomposition. I highly suggest that everyone buy into his ideas, which are what quite a bit of my nutrition is based on, because what he is telling you about these issues is correct according to both science and real world results.

Ravn said:

References for your broscience, please

 

I'll repeat myself: If a steady stream of amino acids is already being released into the bloodstream from the digestive tract due to having a quality meal prior to working out, why would PWO protein supplementation be necessary?

 

I chugged my way through 5 kg of whey about one year ago, but gave it up, because I felt absolutely no different when I used it, except my wallet got thinner. In that period, I didn't gain any weight either. However, when I began training I weighed 73 kg and today I weigh 82 kg but with less bodyfat, without any use of supplements, but having a fairly normal diet. 

Ravn, what was the time-course of your 9 kg weight gain, and when did you start supplementing with creatinine and beta-alanine in relation to the weight gain/fat loss?

Like you, I've always tried to steer clear of supplements, and have used milk rather than whey, but unlike you, I don't think I've gained that much weight, and any weight I may have gained was certainly not accompanied by any significant fat loss. (though I don't carry that much fat to begin with).

I'm even weary of using creatinine and beta-alanine, so I wonder if these supplements you're taking are part of why you've gained so much weight while dropping fat. 

I know creatinine is considered effective and reasonably safe (except for the whole hair-loss scare that was all over the internet a few years ago ), but does anyone have thoughts on the effectiveness and long-term safety of beta-alanine supplementation? 

-MR said:

Ravn, what was the time-course of your 9 kg weight gain, and when did you start supplementing with creatinine and beta-alanine in relation to the weight gain/fat loss?

 

Like you, I've always tried to steer clear of supplements, and have used milk rather than whey, but unlike you, I don't think I've gained that much weight, and any weight I may have gained was certainly not accompanied by any significant fat loss. (though I don't carry that much fat to begin with).

 

I'm even weary of using creatinine and beta-alanine, so I wonder if these supplements you're taking are part of why you've gained so much weight while dropping fat. 

 

I know creatinine is considered effective and reasonably safe (except for the whole hair-loss scare that was all over the internet a few years ago ), but does anyone have thoughts on the effectiveness and long-term safety of beta-alanine supplementation?

Hi MR, let me try and separate the variables

I have only been using creatine and beta-alanine for a single three month cycle, and have been off it for a month. Will start a new cycle on monday. Weighed myself this morning and was a bit more than 82 kg, so creatine/alanine hasn't got much, if any, to do with the weight gain. Mainly began experimenting with alanine to master the hollow body rocks, which I did just last week. Whether alanine helped, IDK, perhaps on a psychological basis.

The time frame of the weight gain is rather slow, something like five-six years. I did pullup training for years in relation to climbing, but I did not start to gain anything before I got into 24 and 32 kg double kettlebells and single leg squats; my conclusion is that posterior chain work and leg work equals weight gain, while upper body work on its own won't.

I've always been lean, but in my early thirties I was perhaps bordering on skinny fat with emerging love handles

I weighed the same a year ago, but I was fatter, so doing just F-series has made me leaner and has also put on some mass.

Thanks Ravn, that definitely does clear things up  

Ravn said:

That was an interesting read, thanks for the link. It was new to me that an energy deficit is associated with higher body fat percentage. Kind off goes against the idea of fasting, I'd assume.

also explains how I was gaining BF% during my weight increase last year. interesting. 

-MR said:

Ravn, what was the time-course of your 9 kg weight gain, and when did you start supplementing with creatinine and beta-alanine in relation to the weight gain/fat loss?

 

Like you, I've always tried to steer clear of supplements, and have used milk rather than whey, but unlike you, I don't think I've gained that much weight, and any weight I may have gained was certainly not accompanied by any significant fat loss. (though I don't carry that much fat to begin with).

 

I'm even weary of using creatinine and beta-alanine, so I wonder if these supplements you're taking are part of why you've gained so much weight while dropping fat. 

 

I know creatinine is considered effective and reasonably safe (except for the whole hair-loss scare that was all over the internet a few years ago ), but does anyone have thoughts on the effectiveness and long-term safety of beta-alanine supplementation? 

Just a small point, but creatinine is a waste product. I think you mean creatine, correct?

I don't know of any long term studies on beta-alanine, but there is a 5 year study on creatine that showed zero harmful effects at 3-5g per day.

Thanks for noticing that Josh, you're right, I meant creatine. 

My concern is that long-term safety with any agent is notoriously hard to study. It's one thing to administer an agent to a bunch of subjects, and then follow their renal function over time, and another to try and detect an increase in the baseline risk of a rare condition in people who supplemented with an agent for prolonged periods of time. The latter is a much more difficult feat to achieve, and for rare conditions, you really have to be looking for it in order to find it. 

As an example, I'm not sure if you've heard of the increased incidence of ALS (Lou Gehrig’s disease) found in Italian soccer players and American football players. Although there are numerous theories as to what underlies this increased risk, supplementation with BCAAs has been brought forward as one potential culprit. 

Here's a link to a commentary on it in case you're interested: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049458/

Here are some abstracts in case you really get interested:  

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20832409 (this is the paper that led to the above commentary)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23402925

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21538464

This is just a theory based on some suggestive animal findings (the animals did not actually develop ALS), so I don’t want people to freak out about having taken BCAAs. In all likelihood, BCAAs do not increase the incidence of ALS, but there's at least some biological plausibility to the theory, and I’m purely using this as a convenient example given BCAAs' rise in popularity following the relatively recent interest in the "LeanGains" protocol.

With respect to creatine, I realize it's considered a safe drug at the moment, and I'm not disputing that. There was however a study that showed a marked increase in DHT:T levels in rugby player that supplemented with creatine: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19741313 

This is where the whole idea that creatine would speed up hair loss in those susceptible to male pattern baldness came from. Again, there's biologic plausibility, and it could therefore at least theoretically affect prostate enlargement as well, but we only know this because someone had funding and decided to specifically look at those hormone levels in a study.

Finally, I know nearly nothing about beta-alanine, other than the fact that the few times I took it as part of a BCAA mix, the tingling was enough to scare me off it. Anything that gets my nervous system firing like that better have some long-term outcome studies associated with it before I start using it again, especially after reading about the effect of BCAAs on rat neurons . I know that the tingling can be reduced or even eliminated by dividing one’s dosage, but the point is that there’s really nothing out there regarding the long-term safety of beta-alanine supplementation despite it clearly having some kind of effect on the nervous system.

Here's a link I found through a quick google search: http://suppversity.blogspot.ca/2013/05/is-beta-alanine-dangerous-neurotoxin-or.html (I haven't read this one fully yet, so I apologize in advance if it's crap)

I guess the point of this already too-long and meandering post is that it's one thing to take agents with unknown or even known risks to treat or prevent life-threatening illnesses, and another to take them because we want to see the last two abs on our six-pack. My opinion is that the benefits of supplementation need to outweigh the risks, and when someone is healthy, fit, and happy, one has to wonder whether it's wise to take supplements with unknown risk profiles to simply increase strength or mass gains by a small percentage, especially if one's livelihood does not depend on it. This is just my opinion though, based solely on my own limited reading on the subject. I'd be happy to hear from someone who knows more about this topic than I do.  

M

PS: Ravn, I wasn't targeting you in that last paragraph. I know you already have a full six-pack

No offense taken, MR. Actually, I have creatine and alinine in the cupboard, and my calendar says I'm supposed to begin a cycle, but I can't really seem to get started again. The whole point of beta-alinine was to improve in the hollowbody rocks, since it's a bout of +60 seconds. Now that I am beyond that, the whole thing just seems like a hassle. I may keep doing the creatine, though, as some of the stuff in F3 is very tough, and I need all the assistance I can get...

Bissen said:

Pretty sure Josh (Naterman) has stated several times, that anything beyond 1.8g/kg bodyweight per day is unnecessary and potentially harmful if done over a prolonged period.

This can't be right... I mean, if I eat 2 beef steaks per day (which I regularly do) then I hit 150g of Protein just from the steaks alone. 

I am 70kg - and 1.8g per kg of body weight means 126g for me. 

Throw in a couple of hard boiled eggs for breakfast and I am killing myself according to that idea.