Protein supplementation in addition to 200 g/day?

I counted my dietary protein consumption yesterday, which was ordinary in terms of food intake, and ended up at 200 grams over four meals and some intermediate snacking. Sources were:

• Milk
• Buttermilk
• Eggs
• Herring
• Almonds
• Pork
• Paté
• Cheese
• Mackerel

I also ate 7-8 slices of rye bread (sour dough) and two large servings of rice, but didn't count the protein in these foods, although there's bound to be at least some in there. I would estimate that the bread added some 12 grams. I also didn't count the protein in my veggies/fruits, which were carrots, bell peppers, apple and banana.

Yesterday I also did F1 & 2.

I'm 37 y.o. and 82 kg. That puts me at ~2,4 grams of protein per kg.

Am I right in assuming that supplementing with whey protein would be a waste of money? I already meet the required intake, right?

For PWO I usually drink a bunch of milk, sometimes spiced up with some dark chocolate and sugar, and then eating as much as I can get away with before going to bed, roughly as per Naterman's instructions.

I do F-series 4-5 times per week, and go for a few walks, occasionally I go climbing. I don't do a lot of cardio, because it sucks during the winter (living in the countryside, getting wet, muddy feet in my vibrams really does suck).

In general, I find the whole protein mixing business awkward and cumbersome, plus it's easier for me to just buy protein rich food at the grocers and bring it to work. I really don't won't to be a protein mixing asshole at work, it's a stigma I cannot bear

Yeah, I'd say you get more than enough protein intake.

Bipocni said:

Yeah, I'd say you get more than enough protein intake.

Whoa, in Bro-world that statement is an oxymoron, you can never have "more than enough protein intake" 

Seriously though, it is quite a lot of work to chew through all that food, it requires an indomitable will 

Check your other macros as well. 200 g of protein is a lot, there's no need of adding whey  

from a absorption pov you need protein intake after the workout in a window of 20-30 minutes, here is useful have a source that can be integrated faster. while if you eat you need at least 40 minutes before the digestion starts. you are out of the window.

of course if you eat enough protein, use a supplement is a loss of money.

stated that i'm sure that if the medicine structure does not provide an absorption test is very difficult determinate how much you need.

seriously, I wouldn't add any whey. That would get you really close to the safe limit of 2.8 g/kg. 

alex87 said:

from a absorption pov you need protein intake after the workout in a window of 20-30 minutes, here is useful have a source that can be integrated faster. while if you eat you need at least 40 minutes before the digestion starts. you are out of the window.

of course if you eat enough protein, use a supplement is a loss of money.

stated that i'm sure that if the medicine structure does not provide an absorption test is very difficult determinate how much you need.

I've been thinking about this; shouldn't a decent pre-workout meal take care of this? I don't do my workouts in a fasted state, so I assume that my gut is full of tasty food (sorry for that mental image), and therefore also available post-workout?

There in no substitute for PWO protein. It has to digest in 20-30 min. It's easy to test. Just add it and see the results in your recovery.

Riku Calderón said:

There in no substitute for PWO protein. It has to digest in 20-30 min. It's easy to test. Just add it and see the results in your recovery.

References for your broscience, please

I'll repeat myself: If a steady stream of amino acids is already being released into the bloodstream from the digestive tract due to having a quality meal prior to working out, why would PWO protein supplementation be necessary?

I chugged my way through 5 kg of whey about one year ago, but gave it up, because I felt absolutely no different when I used it, except my wallet got thinner. In that period, I didn't gain any weight either. However, when I began training I weighed 73 kg and today I weigh 82 kg but with less bodyfat, without any use of supplements, but having a fairly normal diet. 

Ravn said:

References for your broscience, please

 

I'll repeat myself: If a steady stream of amino acids is already being released into the bloodstream from the digestive tract due to having a quality meal prior to working out, why would PWO protein supplementation be necessary?

 

I chugged my way through 5 kg of whey about one year ago, but gave it up, because I felt absolutely no different when I used it, except my wallet got thinner. In that period, I didn't gain any weight either. However, when I began training I weighed 73 kg and today I weigh 82 kg but with less bodyfat, without any use of supplements, but having a fairly normal diet.

Having Preworkout nutrition certainly makes the post workout less necessary for the reasons you mention. However it also depends on the type of protein you took before the workout and how long your workout is. I'd say if it is under and hour you are probably ok with a relatively fast digesting protein taken right before. There does seem to be some benefit in very trained people from again taking a fast protein right after. This is thought that the leucine signal may produce a greater muscle building stimulus. About 30grams of whey does this. It also depends on the carbohydrates/ calories you have eaten because some of the protein may be utilized in gng rather than going to the muscle tissue.

My recommendation for maximal protein synthesis is to take a small dose immediately after workout of whey. Though in your case there might now be much of a difference. Also know not all protein is created equal. Current literature suggests that the leucine release seems to be the best biggest factor in muscle synthesis.

Ravn said:

 

Yesterday I also did F1 & 2.

 

I'm 37 y.o. and 82 kg. That puts me at ~2,4 grams of protein per kg.

 

Am I right in assuming that supplementing with whey protein would be a waste of money? I already meet the required intake, right?

 

For PWO I usually drink a bunch of milk, sometimes spiced up with some dark chocolate and sugar, and then eating as much as I can get away with before going to bed, roughly as per Naterman's instructions.

I think even if you were bulking your protein numbers are high so I would say you absolutely don't need any protein supplements. You say your PWO is milk. What do you take for your carbs? Remember, Josh's recommendation is 60-80 grams of carbohydrate that has a high glycemic index (and no fat).

Ravn said:

References for your broscience, please

 

I'll repeat myself: If a steady stream of amino acids is already being released into the bloodstream from the digestive tract due to having a quality meal prior to working out, why would PWO protein supplementation be necessary?

 

I chugged my way through 5 kg of whey about one year ago, but gave it up, because I felt absolutely no different when I used it, except my wallet got thinner. In that period, I didn't gain any weight either. However, when I began training I weighed 73 kg and today I weigh 82 kg but with less bodyfat, without any use of supplements, but having a fairly normal diet. 

have you sifted through Josh's thread? something that helped me dial in(how much whey to use) and dial down(that i don't need to use it so much out of workout) my Whey consumption in ratio with what you're eating. I buy my own from my business and am very happy with it, though i see it's merit mostly shine in convenience. I scoop, i add water, i mix, i drink, done. no cooking involved, which sometimes is a -huge- plus for me. 

not all proteins are the same though, I've never used another whey protein isolate in it's entirety but the one's i have tried (before I decided to buy my own) were terrible. make sure that the company has a satisfaction guarantee policy and "test" those proteins, if you don't like it, take it back. what I mean by that(for ex.) is that if muscle regeneration cycle is 90days, try one for that amount of time or an entire Cycle of wherever you are in F-Series. the company I represent has a 6 month satisfaction guarantee on it's products, for example. 

on another note, how's your Carb consumption? protein is great, though magic happened to me when I used 55%-25%-20%. all of this is relevant though, Josh has mentioned eating prior to your workout(i've heard of a few people here doing it too.) and i'm usually good with food as long as it's been 30min since I ate and it isn't huge on fats, but if i don't have time to cook or simply choose not to, i'll mix in some whey with plain greek yogurt, add fruits and some B-12. I can do the same with greek yogurt, fruit, hemp seeds, peanut butter, ya know? I sometimes eat grapes during my workout. since i haven't really taken the time to find a glucose powder that i can put into my shake. so it's like, depending on what you choose to do, you'll simply have  to do the measurements and make it yourself. 

edit: typo on the macro %'s. derp.

Pretty sure Josh (Naterman) has stated several times, that anything beyond 1.8g/kg bodyweight per day is unnecessary and potentially harmful if done over a prolonged period.

Thanks for the response guys. I haven't worked out the ratio between P/C/F, because I can't be bothered counting calories. I'm really just looking to gain 90 or so percent of what can be achieved with a truly optimised diet, but with as little hassle as possible. Got three kids and a full time job, so I haven't got the time to obsess about it. But eating a lot I can manage

200g seems high to me I weigh a little bit more than you but only get in about 160 ( 180-190 if I count protein from vegetables). Also i noticed you didnt count protein from bread rice fruit and veg but if i count protein just from vegetables that alone for me is 30g more or so. Should we count protein from vegetables when counting the Macros?

Daniel Burnham said:

Having Preworkout nutrition certainly makes the post workout less necessary for the reasons you mention. However it also depends on the type of protein you took before the workout and how long your workout is. I'd say if it is under and hour you are probably ok with a relatively fast digesting protein taken right before. There does seem to be some benefit in very trained people from again taking a fast protein right after. This is thought that the leucine signal may produce a greater muscle building stimulus. About 30grams of whey does this. It also depends on the carbohydrates/ calories you have eaten because some of the protein may be utilized in gng rather than going to the muscle tissue.

My recommendation for maximal protein synthesis is to take a small dose immediately after workout of whey. Though in your case there might now be much of a difference. Also know not all protein is created equal. Current literature suggests that the leucine release seems to be the best biggest factor in muscle synthesis.

I personally agree with this statement. You're looking for a pulse of about 3g of rapidly absorbed leucine, and that's about what you get from 30g of high quality whey protein.

When I am using a slower protein, like solid food and a mixed meal around the PWO period (or a slow protein like casein), I just take a half teaspoon of L-leucine with it. Dissolved in liquid, it hits the gut first (before the solid components of a meal, just as whey protein will) and kick-starts protein synthesis. The amino acid release from the food will then sustain protein synthesis.

If you're REALLy trying to max out results, you can always try a single scoop of whey isolate or something like that right after the workout, but i would NOT do any more than that. You are seriously getting plenty, and it is doubtful as to whether the PWO whey will actually make a noticeable difference with your current diet.

This, of course, assuming that your protein is split into a number of 30-40g servings. If you have a giant meal with like 80g of protein, your effective protein intake will be 30-40g lower than it appears.

For details on this: http://foodandsport.com/uploads/3/0/2/0/3020192/benardot-energy_thermodynamics_revisited-j_exercise_science_and_health-2013.pdf

ausswe said:

200g seems high to me I weigh a little bit more than you but only get in about 160 ( 180-190 if I count protein from vegetables). Also i noticed you didnt count protein from bread rice fruit and veg but if i count protein just from vegetables that alone for me is 30g more or so. Should we count protein from vegetables when counting the Macros?

Yes. All nitrogen sources should be included, but you should realize that your vegetable protein does not have anywhere near as much leucine, and because of this you will need more of it to support optimal protein synthesis. Probably 45-50g instead of 28g of whey. it's a big difference, but if you're getting tons of protein it won't be that big of a deal.

By "tons of protein" I mean 2 g/kg or more.

ausswe said:

Should we count protein from vegetables when counting the Macros?

macro's are macro's. i found this out earlier this year when i started feeling REALLY good with training and then FredinChina had to point out that I was getting a layer of padding in the mid section. (which even though i was APT'ing, he was totally right. i especially noticed it when i'd get in a Hollow body hold, the muscles underneath would contract nicely but then leave this mass of stuff around my bellybutton that felt like a cannibals favorite treat, an adipose tissue donut.)

KeilaniG said:

macro's are macro's. i found this out earlier this year when i started feeling REALLY good with training and then FredinChina had to point out that I was getting a layer of padding in the mid section. (which even though i was APT'ing, he was totally right. i especially noticed it when i'd get in a Hollow body hold, the muscles underneath would contract nicely but then leave this mass of stuff around my bellybutton that felt like a cannibals favorite treat, an adipose tissue donut.)

Macros are definitely not macros.  In fact Id rather people just eat whole fresh foods than even worry about macros.  Then you can worry about the macros in your diet.  

Fast Carbs affect you much different than slow carbs.

There are several types of fats (saturated, unsaturated, and even trans)

Protein also has different amino acid profiles which is why many vegetarians fail to get good sources despite eating "enough" protein.

All these things matter.  Luckily if you are just adjusting whole foods to a macro count you are already in good shape.

Think about this.  I could eat pop-tarts, protein powder and  crisco and have the same macros as salmon asparagus and rice.  Not going to get even remotely the same results.

Josh mentioned Leucine, and while I don't want to discuss much more on this, we do know several things about it.  It seems to promote muscle synthesis as a signal, and also is preferentially absorbed by the body.

#sigh

...let me leave it at that.

Interesting stuff.

Thanks for the leucine option Josh, I'll give that a try. Doesn't seem too cumbersome , as I already use creatine and beta-alanine in the morning and evening / PWO. Doing a simple shot of PWO supplementation I can do, it's the having to rely on whey throughout the day that I can't manage in the long run. Leucine would also be relatively inexpensive.

I calculated that consuming the same amount of protein either as milk or whey costs more or less the same, but milk is just hugely more convenient for me.

Joshua Naterman said:

If you're REALLy trying to max out results, you can always try a single scoop of whey isolate or something like that right after the workout, but i would NOT do any more than that. You are seriously getting plenty, and it is doubtful as to whether the PWO whey will actually make a noticeable difference with your current diet

Joshua Naterman said:

Yes. All nitrogen sources should be included, but you should realize that your vegetable protein does not have anywhere near as much leucine, and because of this you will need more of it to support optimal protein synthesis. Probably 45-50g instead of 28g of whey. it's a big difference, but if you're getting tons of protein it won't be that big of a deal.

That's interesting... for vegetarian/vegan people does taking BCAA with meals/powders enhance the value of vegetarian protein, or are there more complicated factors at work?

IcedDante said:

That's interesting... for vegetarian/vegan people does taking BCAA with meals/powders enhance the value of vegetarian protein, or are there more complicated factors at work?

By value I am assuming you mean muscle building "power" and the answer to that would be yes.  If you mean value by cost then no.  Whey is pretty much the cheapest source of leucine you can buy.  What you are doing by taking other amino acids with the plant protein is trying to recreate a complete source.  Leucine is a good one to add for the reasons I mentioned above.  Of course there are always things to consider when trying to recreate real food and we just cant possibly do it close enough to match how our body expects food to come in.  We can play with things to help make certain parts more efficient or closer to what we want but real food always wins.   Otherwise we could all be drinking soylent only and using that for all of our nutritional needs.

In this case, one thing that immediately comes to mind is the difference in release and uptake between the eaten protein and the added amino acids.

Josh may have more info.