Using F1 every day, but only 1 set per movement.

Now we are talking I can definitely see your points. Building strength and work capacity first makes total sence. Good to hear about what is coming up.

Reading this thread makes me feel like a total wimp.  As I get closer towards mastery of some of the elements of (only) PE1, I've felt the need to scale back on my other sporty activities. 

You guys must be beasts. 

Jennifer said:

Reading this thread makes me feel like a total wimp. As I get closer towards mastery of some of the elements of (only) PE1, I've felt the need to scale back on my other sporty activities.

You guys must be beasts.

Here in lies the appeal of crossfit. It makes you feel like a beast. You do a ton of exercises and get super tired and sore. I mean you are doing 60 pull-ups right(kipping). You are throwing up weight! Climbing ropes! It's fantastic!

That is until you realize what a real beast looks like. You try those exercises and then realize you are unable to perform anything. You think "crossfit made me feel better about myself" and you loose focus. Then you simply dismiss those other guys as freaks, genetically gifted or even gymnasts...

Daniel Burnham said:

Here in lies the appeal of crossfit. It makes you feel like a beast. You do a ton of exercises and get super tired and sore. I mean you are doing 60 pull-ups right(kipping). You are throwing up weight! Climbing ropes! It's fantastic!

That is until you realize what a real beast looks like. You try those exercises and then realize you are unable to perform anything. You think "crossfit made me feel better about myself" and you loose focus. Then you simply dismiss those other guys as freaks, genetically gifted or even gymnasts...

I think it depends. I personally think there is quite a bit of disbalance in CF. Barbell is getting heavier and improving every year very fast but BW movements are not going anywhere. Typical regional level crossfitter today would be able to squat around 400 lb, DL 500 lb, Snatch 225lb, C&J 300 lb. These are very good numbers considering that they come together with high endurance level and low BW for many people but then BW movements complexity and requirements are really lacking. Believe me there is a lot of respect to any kind of "freaks" in CF community. And that's why we are here doing F1.

RF_Guy said:

I think it depends. I personally think there is quite a bit of disbalance in CF. Barbell is getting heavier and improving every year very fast but BW movements are not going anywhere. Typical regional level crossfitter today would be able to squat around 400 lb, DL 500 lb, Snatch 225lb, C&J 300 lb. These are very good numbers considering that they come together with high endurance level and low BW for many people but then BW movements complexity and requirements are really lacking. Believe me there is a lot of respect to any kind of "freaks" in CF community. And that's why we are here doing F1.

No doubt weightlifting is getting more dues. Many gyms are doing dedicated strength training now. I wish they had the same attitude about bw.

However for my previous argument I meant when people first try crossfit not necessarily the guys competing and looking for better training methodology.

RF_Guy said:

But were not talking about general mobility for generic purposes or other sports. We're talking about the mobility required to do very specific gymnastics skills. If you don't care to do rings and planche, then train however the heck you like.

This is incorrect. Mobility is about developing and promoting strong joints and healthy patterns of movement. A lack of mobility significantly increases the risk of injury, whether you're doing rings or oly lifts. The risk of many common training injuries is vastly reduced in athletes with good mobility.

I think you are right. And I am sure compromizes will be needed as we progress. I would like to see what GB team opinion is on this subject. Is it advisable to just put any weightlifting acitivities aside until fundamentals are conquered and there is no issue with at least basic mobility? I think coach once mentioned that Chineese gymnasts persue x2 BW squat. How do they do that? That is pretty respsectable squat  and would requre quite a bit of dedicated weightlifting. So since they are able to implement it and believe that it is beneficial for their gymnastics and I do not think they have any issues with mobility. There should be a way to implement that kind of activities.

Personally I don't understand the motivation behind combining Foundation with weight training. Doing two strength training programs at once is just going to retard your progress in both. If you must use weights, make Foundation your priority: Foundation is the real work, and weights are your play time.  

I would be very surprised if the members of the Chinese national team had to do much work to develop a 2x bodyweight squat. Between advanced maximal leg strength work, dynamic leg work, and frequent sprinting done for vaulting and tumbling, I would not be surprised to see an elite gymnast squat well in excess of 2x bodyweight on their first day lifting. 

O.lifts by their nature should not cause any mobility issues. Metcons is a very different topic. Assuming that we do not do anything stupid to cause some excessive lactic acid build or to cause overuse in any particular area I think it is possible to implement them as well. I do not think conditioning is not included in gymnastics because it interferes with gymnastics specific training, but more likely because it is just not needed. 

 As Dan said, the sport of gymnastics involves quite a bit of conditioning. Doing some metcon on top of Foundation work should be just fine as long as you're not pursuing movements that are too difficult. I would guess that the Movement series will involve some conditioning work. 

Daniel Burnham said:

That is until you realize what a real beast looks like. You try those exercises and then realize you are unable to perform anything. You think "crossfit made me feel better about myself" and you loose focus. Then you simply dismiss those other guys as freaks, genetically gifted or even gymnasts...

It irks to me no end when people dismissively say "oh, (s)he's a gymnast". As if gymnasts have some inherent, unfair advantage and therefore should not be compared to "normal people". 

RF_Guy said:

But were not talking about general mobility for generic purposes or other sports. We're talking about the mobility required to do very specific gymnastics skills. If you don't care to do rings and planche, then train however the heck you like. If you want gymnastics skills, then focus on the work you need to do without distracting yourself, or thinking that you can be successful at everything.

That's what we tend to think because our mobility is so poor and far from what it use to be that we think it is not needed. I would recommend that everyone needs this mobility to restore what we had when we were younger and to prevent injury. My 6 and 8 year old daughters started F1 3 weeks ago and they laugh when they do the mobility as they can't believe that I call it an exercise. It is amazing to me how easy swivel hips and windmill are to them. Even the BHBH and ABH are way better than what mine was when I started. As Coach says children are in perfect balance and us adults are brittle.

I had a patient yesterday with bilateral tennis elbow that has started since going to the gym. When I checked his elbows they did nor even straighten because he was so tight. When I asked him what mobility he was doing he looked at me like I spoke another language. I told him to stretch between sets just like we do and that way over an hour session he has got 30 mins mobility work. Now he was a 45 year old and not lifting heavy, but is stiff as a board and is typical of the general population. He would have been far better off following F1 and H1. He would have saved $1000 gym membership and a $76 donation to me.

thecolin said:

But were not talking about general mobility for generic purposes or other sports. We're talking about the mobility required to do very specific gymnastics skills. If you don't care to do rings and planche, then train however the heck you like. If you want gymnastics skills, then focus on the work you need to do without distracting yourself, or thinking that you can be successful at everything.

Hey Colin, I guess we're on the same page on how gymnastics is amazingly good at preparing bodies overall and I'm not discussing that.

To be honest, I wouldn't call Stiff Leg Windmills or XiaoPengs "mobility required to do very specific gymnastics skills", they're barely basic mobility for the average man in my opinion.

The problem arises when people can't even do those and thank god there's at least someone caring about that, I'm only saying that sometimes in here people seems to think that  this program is the only "light in the dark".

I'm pretty sure dancers or ice skaters or athletics practitioners would laugh at Swivel Hips the same way kids do, just because they haven't lost it, exactly like gymnasts.

maolu said:

 

To be honest, I wouldn't call Stiff Leg Windmills or XiaoPengs "mobility required to do very specific gymnastics skills", they're barely basic mobility for the average man in my opinion.

 

No, those specific elements aren't going to make anyone a gymnast, but they're just a first basic step. To succeed you need to go way beyond those elements. If you want to do another sport with less rigorous mobility requirements, you can probably stick with those elements. But for gymnastics you're going to need things like a shoulder width dislocate and a full, active pike/pancake stretch.

People who started as kids have a massive advantage, these elements are nothing for them, just an (albeit substantial) investment of time to prepare the body. Trying to get them starting as an adult requires very concentrated with maximum mobility as a primary training goal. My impression (though I hate to generalize about such a massive group of people) is that strength and endurance training for CF is primary, mobility is looked at when injury or stiffness get in the way of that goal. It's something that will allow to to keep doing your lifting. Not something you do to develop a pike for perfect hanging leg lifts.

Last couple of years mobility has been considered very important in CF community mostly thanks to tremendous work done by one person Kelly Starret. Of course nothing like what would be considered even basic Gymnastics and it is exercise specific. Hip joints, knees and shoulders get most attention. Most demanding exercise in terms mobility for CF would be Overhead squat and SLS, not gymnastics quality but still pretty demanding as a lot of people struggle with it.

RF_Guy said:

Of course nothing like what would be considered even basic Gymnastics and it is exercise specific. 

This is what I'm saying. I don't think that CF mobility is bad or inappropriate for the intended audience, just not enough for gymnastic purposes.

And if your focus is to work to that CF level of mobility 4-5 times a week and then work to max capacity within that range, both strength and endurance wise, I don't think some Foundation on the side is going to get you into a new working ROM. You are telling your body to be as tense as possible in those positions, which is very counterproductive when you need to then work way, way beyond that ROM.

I am not sure that is true. I believe there is much more synergy between activities and practical experience to demonstrate it. As an example after 2 years of just CF and doing almost nothing for 10 years before that I was able to do back lever on rings first time I tried it. Same with multiple strict MU. Front lever took some practice but I was able to do it as well within just few weeks. All I am trying to say that it is not mutually exclusive and there is quite a bit of carry over.

Kelly Starret has done a great job on educating people about mobility and motor control. I had a great experience when I did a workout at his CF gym in San Fransisco. The workout was for form and technique rather than how much you lifted. If your form was not correct he would adjust your technique and make you do the rep again.

The CF community is far ahead of other sports in terms of self treatment. In the clinic the CF athletesI treat have a good grasp on how to use a foam roller and lacrosse ball, but all the other athletes I treat usually have no idea. I think this is due to Kelly Starrets influence.

Interestingly, I was listening to the Robb Wolf podcast that Coach was on the other day. And it seems to me that just about every point of this conversation is actually covered quite well there. I suggest giving it a listen.

Very informative pod cast. I guess the problem for anyone in our position would be what to do with strength and conditioning we acquired outside of GB. I do not see people just throw away years of hard work and start all over again. Some people might but vast majority wouldn't. I am not sure what kind of conditioning people are referring when they say it takes only few weeks to develop. Try to get 30 rounds of "Cindy", it took a very long time to develop that kind of mental toughness and work capacity. Constant high intensity work is needed. But that is another point. Coincidentally I was thinking about that exactly foundation problem for last few months. My personal approach was to choose safest and most appropriate exercises for intermediate athlete who does not want to give up his current level for metcons that are designed for high Rep and reduce anything that might cause Overuse or carrying high injury risk movement stick with those. Remove any connective tissue stressing or interfering exercises.

RF_Guy said:

Very informative pod cast. I guess the problem for anyone in our position would be what to do with strength and conditioning we acquired outside of GB. I do not see people just throw away years of hard work and start all over again. 

It's not throwing away years of hard work. It's acknowledging that those years of hard work did not give you all the tools required to pursue high-level GST. The strength you've developed is still there (and ideally you'd be doing some maintenance work to keep it, too). The issue is that you need to build up other tools to be commensurate with your level of strength: body awareness, control, joint and tendon preparation, mobility, flexibility, and a repertoire of fundamental movements. In all of those areas, you have to work your way up from the very beginning, regardless of how much weight you can lift. 

P.S. You've got a good approach. Maintaining metcon with safe exercises that don't stress connective tissues is a good way to go about keeping up your conditioning while doing Foundation. 

Thought I might just post a quick update on my revised program after reading this thread and many others.  It's funny, as soon as I posted this original topic I started to experience debilitating fatigue and many other signs of over training:  elevated am heartbeat, crankiness, lethargy, no desire to train, feeling wired when going to sleep, etc. 

I modified my program as follows: 

Sunday:  cirque fit and hand-balancing classes (2 hrs of training)

Monday: Rest

Tuesday: F1, all movements 

Wednesday:  H1 followed 

Thursday: H1, followed 

Friday: F1 , all movements 

Saturday:  light intro yoga class

I've ditched the CF training and the extra Olympic work...  

My plan is, once I feel recovered, I will work it in on days I feel very fresh--maybe 1x per week or 1x every 10 days or so for a really tough capacity-building workout or Olympic practicing.  

I've realized that at 32 I can't do CF, Olympic lifting, F1 and H1 all to their fullest extent.   

Looks pretty good. I'd recommend dropping the cirque fit class after this session: you don't really need it when you've got Foundation to follow, and the extra recovery will do you good. I'd keep the HB class though, as having an instructor for hands-on teaching is very useful. 

You're also going to want some sort of cardio work, especially if you're planning on competing in the games. 

Joshua Slocum said:

Looks pretty good. I'd recommend dropping the cirque fit class after this session: you don't really need it when you've got Foundation to follow, and the extra recovery will do you good. I'd keep the HB class though, as having an instructor for hands-on teaching is very useful. 

 

You're also going to want some sort of cardio work, especially if you're planning on competing in the games. 

Good point.  I do plan on dropping the cirque fit after it completes.  It's a good course, but I do feel like it's overkill with F1.  Also, I plan on attending the next handbalancing course, which--I believe--will walk through the same progressions again...

In terms of cardio, I agree; however, I'm waiting for my body to recover...maybe giving it 2 full weeks of F1/H1, then working in 1 day of cardio via hill sprints or kettlebell swings--my two preferred methods; if that holds, I may end up with an additional day of jump-rope intervals which I like quite a bit and add the ballistic/plyo element that coach talked about on RW podcast, but I'm going to wait until I feel refreshed.  

Thanks for the suggestion.