It's all worthwhile :-)
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How to know when to stop a set.
Started by Joshua Slocum, January 15, 2014 · 86 Replies · 13,751 Views
"Stare in abject horror"
That was awesome.
My wife sits and watches me sometimes when I work out. That's good motivation. She hears the whistle go off on my timer and knows if I'm wimping out.
VegVeg said:Well I think that still there should be a little side note about working hard, I was working hard ( cranking out all the reps/sets I was supposed to even if I fall, I'd take 5 sec rest and go on ) 5 times a week, and instead of getting super strong super fast I was kinda progressing slowly at the beginning and later on felt even like regressing .
So this whole "you think that you are working hard right now? No! Work harder!" might be too much for some people, I think that I have learned the slow way ( at least I didn't get injured ) that less is more with this much volume.
It kinda surprised me because I had great linear progression with weight lifting, and I never really felt any DOMS after my workouts on foundation, but it is time to try lowering the total volume.
Just a personal experience to even things out her
**(some may say I wasn't eating enough/sleeping enough, well I ate enough to gain a little bit of fat on my belly, had at least 2x gr proteins per kg of body weight and slept at least 8 hours a day)
Coming from a background of weight lifting you should be aware that volume and intensity are two separate variables, both of which affect systemic stress.
If you were not making progress training 5 days a week, did you try dropping it down to 4, 3, or even 2 days a week? Everyone has different tolerances for volume and intensity, but generally the greater the intensity the less volume you can recover effectively from and vice versa.
I know that I started out with 4 days a week (which turned out to be too much), then dropped it to 3 (alternating FL,sPL,HBP,RC and MN,SL,SLS), and am not at 2 days of F1 (still alternating) and 1 day of H1. So basically only doing each movement once each week. So far I have been experiencing consistent progress both in terms of strength and mobility.
There are probably people who can handle 5 days a week or even 3 days of F7 and 3 of H1, but I am not one of them and it doesn't sound like you are either.
Ravn said:I always just sit around and collect my thoughts for a couple of minutes before beginning the sets, in anticipation of the pain.
I did the same with ABH before I gave myself a kick to the butt. It's fun to picture other people just sitting there out of 'despair'. 
Bro said:I did the same with ABH before I gave myself a kick to the butt. It's fun to picture other people just sitting there out of 'despair'.
Funnily enough, I've never had this problem with ABH. I think the form is too pass/fail for me to have a problem with it. Straddle hollows on the other hand scare the crap out of me. I know I can go for mastery if I really push it, but because it's so easy to hold the position without the correct pelvic tilt it requires more awareness of how hard your working.
ABH I can just tune it out as pain, but straddle hollows I need to pay attention which makes it so much more grueling. For those following my thread you might be interested to know I'm currently trying to work up to a 2 minute hold with longer rest intervals. I figure it should make the mastery test less horrifying because I'll always know that I can hold for longer than I'm being tested for.
But yeah, knowing you're in for 5+ minutes of maximum contraction can be a bit intimidating. Those rest times don't really count for anything.
Nicely said Josh.
The timing of this is spot on for me.
By chanceI went into my training session yesterday after reviewing my mindset (without realising this thread existed) and passed SLS/PE4 and HS/PE5 when it shouldn't really have been on the cards. Tough, but when fully focused on the task at hand (simply the next rep), it wasn't actually that bad. I'd been stuck on these movements for about 5 months and if I'd approached them as I had the session before, I'd be repeating another cycle.
Onwards... 
My guesstimate is that full HBH, hands over head, is about twice as hard as straddle HH. And HBR is about twice as hard as HBH.
HBR mastery must have been conceived by a warped mind 
...and to think that this program is recreational, sometimes I wonder why I don't just find a different hobby, lol
Ravn said:...and to think that this program is recreational, sometimes I wonder why I don't just find a different hobby, lol
Because you like being better than everyone else?
....And that the only way to be better than the people around you is to belong to an online community of people that leave you in the dust?
Or, you might just be a masochist...
Ravn said:HBR mastery must have been conceived by a warped mind
...and to think that this program is recreational, sometimes I wonder why I don't just find a different hobby, lol
Just a 1/4th (F1) of the way to become Advanced Beginner .
ok, so let's say that you reach mastery of an element, but on the scale of 1-10 (1 being easiest and 10 being hardest), let's say the rate of perceived exertion is somewhere between 8-10. does that count as mastery?
I personally aim for a 7-8 as in it's an effort but a doable one. I think it's more important for mastery is form and consistency across reps and sets, not perceived effort. So, if you're burning and cursing on the inside but looks crisp to an outside observer it's mastery.
It should also be something you can recover from, like if you go for HBP PE2 and then can't move your arms for week, that's probably your body telling you you haven't mastered it.
Keegan Y said:Coming from a background of weight lifting you should be aware that volume and intensity are two separate variables, both of which affect systemic stress.
If you were not making progress training 5 days a week, did you try dropping it down to 4, 3, or even 2 days a week? Everyone has different tolerances for volume and intensity, but generally the greater the intensity the less volume you can recover effectively from and vice versa.
I know that I started out with 4 days a week (which turned out to be too much), then dropped it to 3 (alternating FL,sPL,HBP,RC and MN,SL,SLS), and am not at 2 days of F1 (still alternating) and 1 day of H1. So basically only doing each movement once each week. So far I have been experiencing consistent progress both in terms of strength and mobility.
There are probably people who can handle 5 days a week or even 3 days of F7 and 3 of H1, but I am not one of them and it doesn't sound like you are either.
Yea I am now about to try 4 days/week, after doing 2 weeks of deload to assure I get a fresh start.
Are you on the more advanced moves or still on F1 sticking points? It would be so hard for me working 2 times a week !
My problem was thinking that I had so many things mastered until some more cues popped on the forums , now working to really nail down the known problematic ones...And then came the feeling of not going anywhere , guess I kinda underestimated the intensity of such high volume because I used to work levers / holds 4 times a week.
May others learn from my mistakes ^^
You might be interested in Prilepin's table. He attempted to actually put some science behind the question of training volume and stress in relation to maximal effort. He retrospectively studied the training logs of Olympic weight lifters. His table is explained in this video:
Bipocni said:But yeah, knowing you're in for 5+ minutes of maximum contraction can be a bit intimidating. Those rest times don't really count for anything.
I find it's easier to get myself started when I look at it as 5+ minutes of getting stronger.
Ronin168 said:ok, so let's say that you reach mastery of an element, but on the scale of 1-10 (1 being easiest and 10 being hardest), let's say the rate of perceived exertion is somewhere between 8-10. does that count as mastery?
Internally you might be struggling, but if you're able to make it look easy (meaning form and tempo remain good), then you're fine. If you have any doubts, test yourself again after deload week.
That's where powerlifting experience is very helpful. Physically it is very different effort but mentally it is very similar, same as grinding through heavy squat or DL... only much-much longer.
My only problem with this (knowing when to stop) is shaking on the static exercises. I'm currently at sPL/PE3 and SL/PE1 for the statics and I can definitely get through the sets without feeling too much strain (at least for planks), but shaking is definitely present.
The way I see it, it's still not going to be mastery if there's significant shaking, but should I move through the weeks if there's shaking but without discomfort from the effort?
Bro said:My only problem with this (knowing when to stop) is shaking on the static exercises. I'm currently at sPL/PE3 and SL/PE1 for the statics and I can definitely get through the sets without feeling too much strain (at least for planks), but shaking is definitely present.
The way I see it, it's still not going to be mastery if there's significant shaking, but should I move through the weeks if there's shaking but without discomfort from the effort?
I have this as well. I'm almost positive moving up is the best way as long as it isn't messing up your form. Then you just stay at the 9-12 week template until the shaking is gone.
That's what I had done with the plank. I repeated the damn mini-cycle 4 or 5 times. -_-' I don't mind repeating when it's hard/can't make rep scheme but when it feels easy otherwise, it's very frustrating.
Since I couldn't train for a whole week during the holiday, I went back to week 1 and I'm working back up again. I hope the cut in volume and the easy time in the previous mini-cycles will have reinforced my plank.
Bro and TANSTAAFL, you should NOT move up a progression if there is shaking. see the "best answer" by coach sommer here:
Ronin168 said:Bro and TANSTAAFL, you should NOT move up a progression if there is shaking. see the "best answer" by coach sommer here:
Totally agreed. I was only speaking in terms of the micro-cycles, but I should have been clearer. To reiterate: I would say moving up micro-cycles is ok(i.e. up from Wk 1-4 to Wk 5-8) if there is shaking, but definitely not moving to the next PE.
Been making a lot of linguistic mishaps on here lately, glad there are plenty to cover the holes before anyone falls in.
Ronin coach meant you should not move up in progression but everyone here is talking about moving up the weeks. If your form isn't breaking and it's just a little shaking don't worry about it you can keep progressing through the weeks BUT do not move on to the next pe until you have completed mastery with 0 shaking
ok. my mistake. i misinterpreted what you guys said.
Ronin168 said:Bro and TANSTAAFL, you should NOT move up a progression if there is shaking. see the "best answer" by coach sommer here:
Really though? I still shake on FL/PE1 but by this point I can bang out mastery of FL/PE5 if I want to....
When I started I could hold pe1 and pe5 for sets of 20-30 seconds they both felt like the same level of difficulty.
There are some things I just don't understand how it all works but you shouldn't be shaking on pe1 with a mastery of pe5.... Is it always like that when you do pe1? I find if I'm not properly warmed up I shake a bit on so e statics.
Really happy this thread happened.
Until recently, I always stopped at the point I felt any pain or discomfort and always left something in the bank. Now I'm going into sets without rest and pushing my body through reps as much as the body can.
I can feel the point where the brain has enough ("this is getting uncomfortable") and you just have to silence your mind, not judge the pain/fatigue, allow the sensations, and just explore how many reps the body can do. Already feeling a big difference in DOMS as well as progress in sticking points (hinge rows and push-ups). Feels like I've gone up a gear!