Losing fat, maintain strength/muscle (for a fat kid)

[Ortprod]

Hey guys and girls,

I have been trying to drop below 10% bf for a while now. I have tried many different things including IF, fat burners, keto diets, anabolic diet, warrior diet, traditional body building routines/diet, and the list goes on. I weigh about 189lb right now and I have been on a SUPER low carb diet. I have mostly eyeballed my food but there is no way I am above 80g of carbs and that would be pushing it. Most of the time I suspect I am below 50g carbs. I do Coach's steady state routine and I somehow, between both that and eating, have gained 10-12 lbs (I was 178 about 1.5 months ago). I DID increase my protein and I don't seem to have gained fat, which I checked with calipers. Suppose to be around 10-11% according to calipers but I don't know how accurate that is. I mostly gain weight in my butt and I have a small amount still left in my chest (gynocomastia) so I know it is somewhat estrogen related. I took novidex in the past but I am not sure how much it helped honestly.

Anyway, I am struggling here. I use to weigh 230, years ago, and I managed to get to where I am but I can't seem to get any further. I am not weak but I want to lean out so my strength to weight ratio increases! I would REALLY TRULY appreciate input here. Should I change my workout routine and have higher intensity? Should I keep up with a keto diet and just measure my stuff better? Should I go for WOD instead of steady state and switch to zone/paleo? Should I play with hormone suppressants (estrogen)? My main goal is to gain strength and maybe another inch on my arms but other than that I couldn't care less about size. I would love to be 175lbs and maintain it.

Sincerely,

-John

[gymrob]

Just a quick question: is the anabolic diet you tried the anabolic diet by Dr. Mauro di Pasquale? I have read his book and it certainly seems interesting. If it is his one...what was your experience?

Best of luck.

Thanks.

[Ortprod]

Yes, and it was ok... if I wanted to gain mass. I ended up having (what I believe to be) WAY too many carbs on the weekend. I got terribly constipated because I did not have enough fiber, I believe about 4 days worth. I think the concept is good but I should have done it with paleo guidelines. I shot up to 198lbs (from 185) in about 3 weeks. I don't think it is optimal for me at this point.

[Blairbob]

Ortprod, nutrition isn't really my field but I will throw this out there.

You could look into the body profiling that Charles Poliquin does and see if it makes any sense. CP uses a variety of herbs for estrogen suppression.

Look into your BMR and figure out how many calories you burn a day and how much you're eating and if you're in a surplus or deficit. If you're in a clean surplus, you're gonna build mass.

Like me, maybe us fatbodies just need to do a lot more metcon.

[Ortprod]

Thanks Blairbob,

I was thinking along those same lines too.

-J

[JoeS]

Add some 400m sprints to your training. There's something about that distance that just melts all fat.

[Ortprod]

I am down for that.

Just wanted to add that at this point in my life I am sedentary for most of the day... does this have an effect?? According to Garry Taubes, the delta E equation shouldn't equal out... should it? As in "eat less, exercise more=fat burning", from what I read, it is all hormone based. Does the law of thermal dynamics still hold up at more advanced levels??

Other things crossing my mind: EFA balancing of omega 3 and 6 ratio.

-paralyzed

[JoeS]

Every time you work out, you get a 2 hour "window of opportunity" where you become insulin-sensitive, so that insulin spikes lead to muscle building, not diabetes. That's also true for a few hours when you wake up in the morning. So if you work out twice a day, say metcon at noon and strength/gymnastics later, that gives you about 6 hours of anabolic metabolism. In the evening when you are sedentary is when you want to avoid the starchy carbs and sweets.

The trick with something like this is to avoid overtraining, so your metcon workouts should not be killing, but enough to get that fat-burning "afterburn".

[braindx]

Post everything that you eat in a typical day.

[Ortprod]

K, I am ready to be humiliated....

wake- 1.5-2 scoop protein shake (35-48g pro)

2-3 hours later- 2 handfuls broccoli, 2 fist size pieces of chicken/pork/beef, mayonaise (<<

pre workout supplement- superpump (8g carbs, creatine, nitric ox, etc...)

during workout- amino acid supplement

post workout- 30-40g protein powder

1.5 hours later (about)- almost same as lunch

2-3 hours later- cheese, ham (2-3 slices of each, 1g carb per slice ham)

Sometimes I will have either one more small meal or snack depending on time

Pre bed- multi-v, 35-50g protein, handful walnuts (use to be almonds), 3 fish caps, glucosamine

Now, I don't have the diet soda all the time, this was something I threw in because my g/f and I have been dieting for so long and we need a break once in a while. I can however be very disciplined if need be (and if you guys say so). Two obvious mistakes are the soda and maybe the mayo cause it's helman's and probably made with hormones. I don't trim my meat btw (mistake?). I figured if I can't be small I wouldn't worry about cutting too much and just try to stay keto for now... but then I end up shooting up to 190lb when I up my protein intake. I did that after reading how Gregor does his math on nutrition for protein and fat intake and I just didn't do the carbs. I figure I need somewhere around 230g-270g protein on a keto diet (yes/no/maybe?) Also, I saw Ido say that no one really needs carbs till they are about 8% (?) anyone care to elaborate? Does this mean you should try to stay keto/low carb until then?

Btw, my workout is the last link in my sig if anyone needs to see how I normally train. I use Coach's steady state. I was doing 5x5s until I overtrained my lats.

[Blairbob]

I say add some metcon in there. Either after or spaced out after from your SSC workout.

[Razz]

i know the nuts are healthy but they have soo many calories.. i had to stop eating nuts cause if i ate them i gained weight rapidly even with my lean diet and 6 days/week workouts, some days even 2 workouts, so dropping the nuts to have less calories would be an easy solution. if u wanna keep the nuts i guess u should do more activity to burn the calories.. oh and the mayonaise is probably a mistake.. diet coke has 0 cals so shouldn't make u gain weight. I'm not an expert but thats just my idea/experience.

[Edward Smith]

I have to be quick so I'm going to be blunt. Sorry for the tactlessness.

Drop the diet soda, there is a (substantial) increase in likelyhood of being obese for every can consumed. There are quite a few theories on this, google 'Johnny Bowden and diet soda' he has a good article on it.

The cheese, probably drop it. It depends what cheese, some are good some are bad (ricotta is good [assuming you tolerate dairy well enough).

It may not be your main problem but you should probably do some sort of insulin sensitivity program, it can't hurt. It be as simple as having 1/4 teaspoon cinnamon a day and fish oil caps with every meal (excluding WO meals) to that plus taking alpha lipolic acid or some other supplement of the likes. Another idea is to put the majority of your carbs post WO.

Just some quick thoughts,

Ed

P.S Don't drink milk either!

[Gregor]

If you have carbs, you are not on a keto diet!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not to much familiar with keto diets and it burns more muscle. Trick is that keto diet have huge antikatabolic efect(more then low carb) and almost non anabolic efect (low carb diet have better ratio between anticatabolic:anabolic efect). So bottom line keto diet is burnning more fat but also more muscles.

[Gregor]

whatever you choose low carb/high protein or keto, you can add cardio. Point of cardio is not so much of burning fat but more of making caloric deficit.

I had modified low carb/high protein diet:

1. All carbs on a training between high intesity training

2. Max to 50g of carbs on non training days (more or less from vegetable and fruit for liver glycogen)

3. 2x30 minutes per week of cardio, on non training days of 60% of maximum pulse - cca 120-140 hart beats per minute (you can add ten minutes every second week)

4. Calculate your calories and have suficit on training and big deficit on non training days so you have weekly 10-15% deficit

5. Clean food, no suggar added drinks, no oils omega 6 struckture(olive oil is good but not thermical processed)

6. Omega 6, green tea extracts

[Ortprod]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I agree about the diet soda (I have read some of Boden's stuff) and about the cheese. From what I know, a keto diet is one that stays below 50g carbs a day. I don't have more than that on a normal basis, and I don't spike my insulin until pre workout (with my supplement) which I am going to drop. I agree about the fish caps and the cinnamon and the ALA. I may also try a fatburner with yohimbine in it (suppose to be good for butt fat) even though the cream is better it is WAY too expensive though.

I think the other reason is actually the creatine, which may be making me retain water. I have a VERY hard time believing in caloric deficients because I have done a lot of research on them... but if it's the only thing that works I guess I have to suck it up.

Has anyone seen this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4362041487661765149

His book is really good too, and it is one reason I started to significantly drop my carbs.

[braindx]

I have to be quick so I'm going to be blunt. Sorry for the tactlessness.

Drop the diet soda, there is a (substantial) increase in likelyhood of being obese for every can consumed. There are quite a few theories on this, google 'Johnny Bowden and diet soda' he has a good article on it.

The cheese, probably drop it. It depends what cheese, some are good some are bad (ricotta is good [assuming you tolerate dairy well enough).

It may not be your main problem but you should probably do some sort of insulin sensitivity program, it can't hurt. It be as simple as having 1/4 teaspoon cinnamon a day and fish oil caps with every meal (excluding WO meals) to that plus taking alpha lipolic acid or some other supplement of the likes. Another idea is to put the majority of your carbs post WO.

Just some quick thoughts,

Ed

P.S Don't drink milk either!

I agree with this for the most part.

~No diet soda

~cottage cheese is decent alternative. But it depends if you're lac intolerant or if something's irritating you. Cut it out and see what happens. If nothing drastic add it back in

~Try to talk ALL your carbs post workout if possible. That's the time when you're most insulin sensitive.

~EAT MORE REAL FOOD. Don't take so many protein shakes man.... eggs and fish/meat. More veggies or possibly fruit.

As Gregor said you may or may not be in ketosis even with <50g per day.... and you honestly DO NOT need to be in ketosis IMO. Strict Zone + CF work it's a lot of hormonal response from exercise + restricted cals. But it's true the quality of foods helps some.

I also disagree with the cardio recommendation.

[Blairbob]

certain kinds of creatine will cause the body to retain water. its alluded to cheap kinds with sodium in them. I've heard the newer types of creatine ( Krealkyn? ) don't have this issue.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/animalpak22.htm

diet soda still stimulates insulin release. and it tastes like utter piss. might as well be damned for the good stuff, imo

[Ortprod]

Thanks Braindx,

I am thinking of switching to strict zone and crossfit post Coach's seminar. I want to do Coach's steady state but I don't think it will work with zone (for me) because it might not be as intense as crossfit... although I really don't take more than 30-45 seconds between sets it's still not the same.

I am thinking of having a banana post workout... any thoughts? I think I have leaned out a little bit but the progress is like watching a tortoise play golf. (i.e. slow)

Why no strict cardio Braindx? Because of causing catbolic effects? Seems like doing crossfit (maybe because of the resistance) seems to stop this from happening. Would you guys say doing Coach's WOD would be enough or should I do strict crossfit? I still would want to do at least 1 day of static work to keep up my straight arm strength.

Thanks everyone,

-J

[Gregor]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I agree about the diet soda (I have read some of Boden's stuff) and about the cheese. From what I know, a keto diet is one that stays below 50g carbs a day. I don't have more than that on a normal basis, and I don't spike my insulin until pre workout (with my supplement) which I am going to drop. I agree about the fish caps and the cinnamon and the ALA. I may also try a fatburner with yohimbine in it (suppose to be good for butt fat) even though the cream is better it is WAY too expensive though.

I think the other reason is actually the creatine, which may be making me retain water. I have a VERY hard time believing in caloric deficients because I have done a lot of research on them... but if it's the only thing that works I guess I have to suck it up.

Has anyone seen this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4362041487661765149

His book is really good too, and it is one reason I started to significantly drop my carbs.

I took quick rewiew and I saw nothing sientific. All theories without any sientific backup just observation theories.

It's sientificly proven that caloric suficit makes you fat. So even with no carbs you can get more and more fat if you have to much of other stuff. It's normaly you will lose fat if you take carbs out from diet, why? will you add all calories from carbs to proteins and fat??? Normaly no and from here you get magicly caloric deficit.

Yohimbine cream is much more efective and remember fatburners are nothing without good diet and workout. At best you can get 10% from fatburner with good workout and good diet.

About creatine: outside-cellular water retencion is rare. With creatine you can get from o,5-1 kilo because cells are full with creatine, water and other food, wich is good.

And if you will take away creatine, your caliper wont show you a change in body fat.

[Gregor]

I also disagree with the cardio recommendation.

Why?

[JoeS]

I'm sticking with the 400m sprints. I think they will interfere less with upper-body gymnastic stuff than CF would. IMO a better complement to coach's WOD. Stick to the 70-80s range and 5 reps max. Faster and more will burn you out too much.

I'm also curious why braindx is against cardio. :?:

[braindx]

Extra work isn't always better.

http://robbwolf.com/?p=138

If you're already working out 3-5 times a week IMO you don't need an extra stuff. Fix the diet, sleep and stress levels and everything else follows.

While it's true you may have a body that can handle extra interval work or extra runs (both interval and/or slow runs) why waste energy and time finding out (unless you wanna be extremely active or are training for an endurance event..)?

[Ortprod]

Thanks for all the replies guys. I agree about the diet soda (I have read some of Boden's stuff) and about the cheese. From what I know, a keto diet is one that stays below 50g carbs a day. I don't have more than that on a normal basis, and I don't spike my insulin until pre workout (with my supplement) which I am going to drop. I agree about the fish caps and the cinnamon and the ALA. I may also try a fatburner with yohimbine in it (suppose to be good for butt fat) even though the cream is better it is WAY too expensive though.

I think the other reason is actually the creatine, which may be making me retain water. I have a VERY hard time believing in caloric deficients because I have done a lot of research on them... but if it's the only thing that works I guess I have to suck it up.

Has anyone seen this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4362041487661765149

His book is really good too, and it is one reason I started to significantly drop my carbs.

I took quick rewiew and I saw nothing sientific. All theories without any sientific backup just observation theories.

It's sientificly proven that caloric suficit makes you fat. So even with no carbs you can get more and more fat if you have to much of other stuff. It's normaly you will lose fat if you take carbs out from diet, why? will you add all calories from carbs to proteins and fat??? Normaly no and from here you get magicly caloric deficit.

Yohimbine cream is much more efective and remember fatburners are nothing without good diet and workout. At best you can get 10% from fatburner with good workout and good diet.

About creatine: outside-cellular water retencion is rare. With creatine you can get from o,5-1 kilo because cells are full with creatine, water and other food, wich is good.

And if you will take away creatine, your caliper wont show you a change in body fat.

Gregor, you should read his book. Being a science journalist, the man won an award for it as well as being widely recognized among the scientific community, so I would guess there is some validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Taubes

Second article:

http://nymag.com/news/sports/38001/

[Blairbob]

I think the whole point against typical cardio is:

1. it takes a lot of time

2. LongSlowDistance hasn't showed to increase gH at all. In fact, it tends to be muscle wasting.

3. HIT has been shown to produce more fat loss than LSD.

4. It's boring and lame.