Full lay Front Pull before Full FL or even half straddle FL!?

First of all, I like to thank Coach and the GB community for the quality courses. This is mainly a question for Coach, but anyone else can chime in. Why is a full lay front pull put as a progression that is before even a straddle half lay FL? It should be the hardest thing for the FL in the Foundation series. It is also harder than 1/2 front pull which should also be harder than the FL static. In my experience, 1 rep of a full ROM front pull is harder than a 10 sec FL hold.

The athlete shown doing the front pulls (as well as many of the other FL progressions) also bends his arms slightly which is a flaw and makes it much easier. This isn't to diss the athlete or the courses, it's just my observation.

I would also like to ask the same about Yewkis being before front lever pulls (ice cream makers). In my opinion, Yewkis are harder than front lever pulls.

My observations (subject to Jon error) are;

i. it's not a slow front pull; clearly momentum assisted without being a swing, and with no static.

ii. The 1/2 front pull involves a static only for a second or two, which is definitely within the province of someone who has worked that far through the progressions (personally I find 1/2 front pulls very easy)

Re an elbow bend, I can't see any on the first rep demo'd and I think it's ambiguous on the second... a lot of these guys have some hyperextension going on too which can look a bit funny in straight arm vids.

I do agree that FL pulls are easy but Yewkis are damn hard... still, gotta get em right sometime and you can compare this one to PPP vs. bench dips...

Yes I agree with Brian [ I believe?] I already had a full lay front lever and yewkis were harder IMO.

Many of the progressions don't make sense to me at all, for example someone whore masters PPP x 10 with 'mastery form' doesn't even need to test his ability in bench dips,dips, etc.

Also noticed that PPP+ are included much later and their mastery is easier than the PPP mastery.

There are many more examples of this issue.

And as a final off topic - the SLS progressions made me go :(

The series is great and Coach Sommer is revolutionizing how people train as far as I can see, each word he says is sacred, but the build up in foundation series is a bit lacking for my common sense.

Perhaps it will change in the future because right now it is far from beginner friendly unless great zeal and devotion are implied !

Everything is where it should be.

Front pulls are certainly not the most difficult element in the FL series; unless core strength is lacking (which is indicative of a weakness in HBH, HBR etc). 1/2 FL Pulls are an appropriate stepping stone towards a full FL.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Front Pulls were one of the major exercises I used to get my Full static FL. It was after a seminar i Arizona (before F-series) I started using these together with a couple of other execises.

I struggled with fl. These gave it to me. Seriously I thought nearly had my straddle planche on rings and thought I would get my cross before fl. I look forward to working through these again after my recovery.

I think it depends on current strength and weakness because yewkis feel much easier than front pulls if done correctly with a lock out at the end of each rep. As for the front lever hold. Well you are basically holding the hardest part of a front lever pull for time where as the front lever pull gets easier as you go through the rom and again if your arms aren't locked in the front lever then it will probably be easier I thought mine were for a long time until I recorded and realized they were almost unnoticeable bent.

Some with mastery for ppp may not have enou rom for the dips either so they should still test mastery it will just be quicker to get through extending that rom and the strength part shouldn't be an issue after ppp mastery.

This is the first time I actually heard anyone say that a front pull (full ROM) is easier than the FL static. I guess it's different for everyone, because front pulls from hang to inverted hang were much much harder than a full FL let alone a straddle half FL. For me the difficulty of one rep of front pulls was equivalent to a 10+ second full FL. Now my FL strength is weaker than last year, but I can still hold one for about 5 seconds, but I can't even pull past the FL in a front pull from hang. To me, it's like saying a planche press is easier than a planche hold or a butterfly mount is easier than a cross.

Sounds like an imbalance in lat strength.

Not to worry. Exposing these kinds of unperceived imbalances is exactly the intent and purpose of Foundation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Jon Douglas said:

My observations (subject to Jon error) are;

 

i. it's not a slow front pull; clearly momentum assisted without being a swing, and with no static.

ii. The 1/2 front pull involves a static only for a second or two, which is definitely within the province of someone who has worked that far through the progressions (personally I find 1/2 front pulls very easy)

 

 

Re an elbow bend, I can't see any on the first rep demo'd and I think it's ambiguous on the second... a lot of these guys have some hyperextension going on too which can look a bit funny in straight arm vids.

 

 

I do agree that FL pulls are easy but Yewkis are damn hard... still, gotta get em right sometime and you can compare this one to PPP vs. bench dips...

I remember that you told me that your experience with front pulls in the past was very difficult for you like you struggled to pull past the FL and was able to front pull to FL and hold for 5 seconds before you were able to get full ROM in the front pull.

Regarding the elbow bend in the video, I'm quite certain that he did bend a little and hyperextended elbows would look the opposite. I also have hyperextended elbows.

ausswe said:

I think it depends on current strength and weakness because yewkis feel much easier than front pulls if done correctly with a lock out at the end of each rep. As for the front lever hold. Well you are basically holding the hardest part of a front lever pull for time where as the front lever pull gets easier as you go through the rom and again if your arms aren't locked in the front lever then it will probably be easier I thought mine were for a long time until I recorded and realized they were almost unnoticeable bent.

Some with mastery for ppp may not have enou rom for the dips either so they should still test mastery it will just be quicker to get through extending that rom and the strength part shouldn't be an issue after ppp mastery.

I think you meant front lever pulls rather than front pulls when comparing to Yewkis. The FL is the hardest angle in the front pull, but pulling past that part is harder than just holding it there unless you are holding it for a much longer time than the tempo of the front pull.

I'm 100% sure my arms are locked. I don't rely on looking at my elbows, instead I know the feeling of locking the elbows and feeling constant pressure on the joint. My elbows are also hyperextended so 180 degrees would actually be bent for me.

B1214N said:

This is the first time I actually heard anyone say that a front pull (full ROM) is easier than the FL static. I guess it's different for everyone, because front pulls from hang to inverted hang were much much harder than a full FL let alone a straddle half FL. For me the difficulty of one rep of front pulls was equivalent to a 10+ second full FL. Now my FL strength is weaker than last year, but I can still hold one for about 5 seconds, but I can't even pull past the FL in a front pull from hang. To me, it's like saying a planche press is easier than a planche hold or a butterfly mount is easier than a cross.

A tempo front-pull, maybe. But with momentum, as it's demonstrated in the video, it's far easier than a front-lever hold. 

Coach Sommer said:

Sounds like an imbalance in lat strength.

Not to worry. Exposing these kinds of unperceived imbalances is exactly the intent and purpose of Foundation.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Joshua Slocum said:

 

A tempo front-pull, maybe. But with momentum, as it's demonstrated in the video, it's far easier than a front-lever hold. 

I take back what I said about front pulls being harder than FL. I just tried a front pull with fast tempo (fast initiation but with no swing or kip) and it's easier for sure. Front pulls done with a slow tempo is much harder for sure though, but now I know you guys meant with a fast tempo. At first I thought a fast no kip/swing front pull would be harder than one with a slower or more normal tempo because of higher peak forces like in plyometrics, but the momentum generated at the beginning helps a lot to get past the FL.

for me this is the hardest proggression towards fl, even straddle fl is easier which i can do now.

coach, can this be done in tuck, straddle, since for now this seeams imposible. xd

ty.

kalel said:

coach, can this be done in tuck, straddle, since for now this seeams imposible. xd

 

 

If you're having trouble, perhaps the issue is that you didn't fully master earlier progressions. I would start a new thread and post form-check videos for inverted hang, kip-extension, and negative front pull. Also post your front-pull attempts. Then we can offer better advice. 

If you've really mastered all the preceding exercises, you should be able to do a full-lay front-pull. 

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/14423-form-check-few-element/

hari, give some tips.