Anyone familiar with the Aunkai system? (internal martial arts stuff)

[RatioFitness]

I know it's a long shot, but just curious. 

[Bryan Wheelock]

The more "exotic" a martial art system, the more likely it's built on a foundation of bullshit.

Boxing, wrestling, jujitsu, stick with things that have been proven to work under pressure.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

The more "exotic" a martial art system, the more likely it's built on a foundation of bullshit.

Boxing, wrestling, jujitsu, stick with things that have been proven to work under pressure.

you haven't been around someone who's proficient at Tai Chi Quan, have you? 

 

at one point, i looked at it like something softer than Yoga, I mean they wear pajamas, right? 

 

after practicing it with a few people, in particular Chen and Yang style, my opinion very quickly changed

[Bryan Wheelock]

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's unlikely.

There's big money to be made if you can actually demonstrate your skill is superior to others.

It's one thing to see an instructor demonstrate the technique with the student, it's a totally different thing to apply that technique against someone who's trying to fight back.

[Keilani Gutierrez]

I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's unlikely.

It's one thing to see an instructor demonstrate the technique with the student, it's a totally different thing to apply that technique against someone who's trying to fight back.

completely agreed, i meant my remark in kind spirit  

 

we, above all things, live in a world where there's laws of physics and the ability to make your fighting reflect the principles of those physical laws, are what will set you apart from the masses who marry a modality over doing something that is useful. 

 

it's interesting that you brought that up because thats what every martial journey should lead you to, to find whats useful and ditch what isn't. kind of like opening a present and worshipping the paper it came wrapped in. 

 

what it boils down to is trying to make "Ah!" reactions turn into "Ah-Hah!" reactions and having experienced some "Ah-hah" of those two martial arts, i dare not speak ill of any out loud and that goes the same for an experienced grappler, wrestler, boxer, etc. 

[Bryan Wheelock]

We're in agreement.

I also think it takes quite a bit of experience to know whether what you're being taught could actually be effective.

In the ring, even the professionals rely on the basics.

The best defense is to not be where the bad stuff is happening. Anything else is a gamble.

[Kasper Stangerup]

 

In the ring, even the professionals rely on the basics.

In my experience, especially the professionals and the experts rely on basics. Generally martial arts students go through an evolution where they at the beginner level work at becoming proficient at the basics. Then at the intermediate level, they fall in love with more advanced techniques. And finally, at the advanced level they go back to the basics and work on mastering them.

 

The above doesn't really apply to ground work (BJJ, the Ne-Waza of judo and ju-jutsu, etc.), since the tempo is slower, and you tend to rely on tactile sensory input rather than sight.

[Blairbob]

 Did some googling.

 Very interesting. Especially on the threads at MAP since I know some of those people.

 

 

t's like systema wandered up to a very lonely, desperate taijiquan in a bar. One thing led to another. And 9 months later, we get this.


Pretty much. It looks a lot like a hard version of Systema which makes sense since modern Japanese systems tend to be very stiff like Shotokan. Apparently the founder was a kickboxer and gymnast once upon a time.

Take someone who was in Kyokushinkai and make him do Systema. Some people say it's like Taikiken which is a Japanese take on TaijiQuan but the Japanese do tend to change the chinese systems as they came over to Japan.

TBH, it's not very exotic.

[Murray Truelove]

Slightly off topic but anyone know about Systema? It looks a bit looks a bit like the Aikido demonstrations where everyone's a bit too keen to fall down. 

 

This made me laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6XldR7pCFI

[Blairbob]

^^^ Hahah. Yeah within my group we often have this discussion all the time. We don't want to watch give-me strikes. Then again we take a particular joy in gunning for each other and our sensei (though we go easier on the kohai and green and white belts) often to our own dismay. Occasionally we get lucky but most of the time if we're good, we give out some asshanding.

 

 Anyways, yes in a lot of aikido and systema basically you have a very giving nice-nice uke (attacker) that basically throws you a cantaloupe instead of a 95 mph or something screwy like a 92mph slider, screwball, etc.

 

I think a lot of the stuff we see in Aikido and to some effect, Systema is some form of self hypnosis. If you believe in it, it happens or you are conditioned to thinking that is what happens. If you don't buy into someone's BS, it has no effect on it and you don't end up moving like other believers do.

 That being said, Mikhail Ryabko and Vladimir were Spetznaz. Spetznaz. I've trained with a few Systema guys who were good and they were good but we didn't get to test against something like a balls to the wall attack. They did do some freaky stuff with live knives on their skin without getting cut. Which is just bizarre and an amazing feat of pressure and skill.

[Murray Truelove]

I did Kyokushinkai for a few years and for the most part those guys mean business - saw one guy in a tournament get his eye socket and nose broken (he also got knocked out) when he dropped his guard on a mawashi geri.

 

Had some Kung Fu and Crav maga friends who would say they couldn't "demonstrate" their style because it was too dangerous (eye/throat strikes etc.) but if you asked them to show their techniques on even a light bag their fingers would buckle which always left me wondering if they had every trained them against anything other than air.

 

Even when the style is good there are so man McDojo's about.

[Craig Mallett]

I have a friend who has trained Aunkai in Japan, its great stuff.  Its also well regarded in the internal arts circles. Lots of focus on basics and proper development of body method.

 

BigB: I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the internal crowd.  Plenty of skilled practitioners that could man handle a lot of people.  Of course you can't get paid big money to be skilled at internal arts so there are quite a few less around than MMA, boxing, whatever.  I just apply the old 90% rule to everything, that is, 90% of everyone doing anything suck at it.  Doctors, Physios, Carpenters, Plumbers, Gymnasts, Martial arts.  But the 10% are usually outstanding! Just gotta develop an eye for working out who belongs to the 10%

 

Off the top of my head (if anyone is interested), the following guys have some serious skill:

 

Serge Augier

Alex Kozma

Su Dong Chen 

Ken Fish

Tim Cartmell

[Bryan Wheelock]

I wrestled for 6 years on a national ranked team.

Judo for 1 year.

Wing Chun for about 9 months.

Aikido for 3 years. ( I consider this an internal art) 

Muay Thai for 1 year.

 

I have a little experience in several styles.

 

From what I've seen:

 

A punch is a punch. 

 

A kick is a kick.

 

Striking is ultimately timing and accuracy.

Grappling is leverage and balance( yours and taking theirs).

 

There is no magic.

 

If internal arts are so effective, why don't they step in the ring and show it. 

Internal arts are the ones claiming "magic" so the burden of proof is on them.

 

Can some internal arts generate a powerful strike, sure. 

Can they do it against another person in a pressure situation?

 

Maybe, but that's not how they typically practice. 

 

 

Anyone can lose any fight. 

 

I looked at a few videos by the guys you recommended.

All had  very compliant ukes.

 

Please share a video of an internal martial artist that has proven their skill in open competition or a real fight.

I'd love to see it.

[Blairbob]

 Generally training in internal arts means developing yourself as a person. As in not fighting for competition and ego.

 Sometimes it's something you transition to as you get older.

[Murray Truelove]

Got to say I agree with bigB. We're talking about martial arts after all. I've no problem with someone studying anything for well-being but I think you should be able to ask a practitioner "how does that work as self-defense/in the ring".

[Craig Mallett]

You've just gotta train with the right people.  Plenty of internal guys training for sport fighting, others training for self defence, more training with security and military and even more doing personal development. Su Dong Chen I mentioned above is well known in the Chinese and Taiwan circles for being full contact champion in several different competitions in the 70s and 80s.  Tim Cartmell currently has competing students, doing really well in the sports arena in his local area. Strider Clark has been running security for some super big important names for many years and is well known as someone who is more than capable.

 

Boxing, kickboxing, muay thai etc are certainly proven in the sports arena, but there are plenty of cases of these guys (even professionals) getting themselves flogged in a bar fight by some no name redneck who is drunk.  Im not saying they are worse or better, each just has their pros and cons, and further more it depends on who you're training with and talking to.  I've met boxers with a better understanding of "internal" mechanics than most people practicing internal arts and likewise met internal guys with much clearer understanding of fighting arts.

 

It's really depends on what you want to do.  If you want to be good at fighting, you've kinda gotta fight.  If you want to be good in a sports setting, you've gotta enter competitions, and if you want to be good at security/military style stuff you've gotta go to the hairy zones and get shot at. It's really nothing to do with any style, and more to do with realistic approaches, and proper training.  Blanket statements about "x" style not being effective are kinda pointless.  Internal arts do not automatically guarantee some sort of magical skill (theres nothing magical about it, just a good understanding of structure and timing if you've practiced well - any half way decent practitioner knows this, certainly every decent teacher that I've ever met), nor does it automatically guarantee no skill.  Likewise for any other art.

[Anze Merhar]

Here's one of my favourite Chen Taiji Quan videos, explaining fajin (power generation). Apologies to the original poster for going off topic (but still within "internal" martial arts).

 

[Bryan Wheelock]

Watched the Chen Taiji Quan video.

 

Based on my experience, leaving your non-punching hand low like he does is asking to be knocked out. 

That wide low stance is a fantastic target for a thai kick.

Being rooted like that means you will lose mobility.

 

Punching power is important, but less important than properly timing an accurate punch.

Has anyone ever measured the power of strongest punch of an internal artist, I'd like to see hard data.

 

I've come the realization that the  reality of street fights is,

"No one starts a fight without the belief that they will win."

That usually means multiple attackers and/or weapons will be involved.

[Albert Cid Royo]

#9 and #18 here you have what you want to see. Enjoy it.

[Kasper Stangerup]

 

That usually means multiple attackers and/or weapons will be involved.

Which is why MMA, while very effective in one on one unarmed encounters, may not be the best choice for self defense (IMO).

[Alexey Gerasimov]

Just found this old thread.

Funny to read how people judge the system without any knowledge about it.

But I want to mention the fact that when I met Aunkai it surprised me with it accent on straight arms. Then I read that Akuzawa Minoru was a gymnast in his youth but didn't pay attention to that. And now I can see the connection .