Push ups

sounds awfully dogmatic, HMMs.  i disagree with you.

Hmms said:

A one arm push-up is different than a push-up. An archer push-up is different than a pushup. A diamond push-up is different than a push-up. So is wrist, Hindu, Plyometric and every single other push-ups you just named. So my point still stands only one way to do a pushup

Then um, why do they all have pushup in the name?

Bipocni said:

Then um, why do they all have pushup in the name?

Because they're a variation of pushups.  Why would you ask someone how to do a pushup and tell them about how to do a variation of a pushup?

Hmms said:

Because they're a variation of pushups. Why would you ask someone how to do a pushup and tell them about how to do a variation of a pushup?

I think you are missing the point. Push-ups with your arms kept tight to your sides is a variation of a push-up, elbows at 45 degree push-ups are a variation of a push-up, elbows at 90 degrees to the torso are a variation of a push-up.

Also, elbows at 45 degrees is actually generally the most "natural"/strong position for the upper arms when horizontal pressing, that is why the majority of bench pressers bench in this position.

Keeping the elbows tucked is what Coach wants us to do in this course though and that is likely due to the better carryover to the end goal of Hollow Back Presses.

Try not to think so black and white; there are lots of useful shades of grey.

Keegan Y said:

there are lots of useful shades of grey.

50 in fact.

Christian said:

50 in fact.

Lol. Good one :-)

Christian said:

50 in fact.

Keegan Y said:

I think you are missing the point. Push-ups with your arms kept tight to your sides is a variation of a push-up, elbows at 45 degree push-ups are a variation of a push-up, elbows at 90 degrees to the torso are a variation of a push-up.

Also, elbows at 45 degrees is actually generally the most "natural"/strong position for the upper arms when horizontal pressing, that is why the majority of bench pressers bench in this position.

Keeping the elbows tucked is what Coach wants us to do in this course though and that is likely due to the better carryover to the end goal of Hollow Back Presses.

Try not to think so black and white; there are lots of useful shades of grey.

Bench pressing 45 degrees is wrong, same with pushups.  It is not the most "natural"/strong position.  90 degrees elbows or 45 degree elbows aren't variations.  Performing an exercise wrong doesn't make it a variation and it's got nothing to do with what Coach wants us to do for the course.

Guys, please no ABH / hinge row dissection thread repeats >.< do your pushups like the video, don't cheat, keep a nice plank and move on to something more productive. The differences in hands and elbows are going to be trivial once you are strong enough to do PPP anyway, in practical terms it is a moot point

Not trying to stop the fascinating 'natural' discussion or anything, just be aware of newcomers reading this who will quickly.end up with heads spinning.and second guessing their hard won successes

Hmms said:

Bench pressing 45 degrees is wrong, same with pushups.

So where do you keep your elbows when you bench press then?

Hmms said:

Bench pressing 45 degrees is wrong, same with pushups. It is not the most "natural"/strong position. 90 degrees elbows or 45 degree elbows aren't variations. Performing an exercise wrong doesn't make it a variation and it's got nothing to do with what Coach wants us to do for the course.

Ok, this is the last I am going to post on the subject because as Jon said, it's not really relevant to the F1 material.

Where are you getting your information? Show me even one picture of a World Record Raw bench press where the lifter is using a shoulders width, elbows fully tucked pressing position. One, and I'll concede that you're right.

Problem is you won't find a pic anywhere because that's not how World class bench presses are done. Power Lifters seek to maximize leverage, muscular recruitment, and minimize ROM because their whole sport is about moving the most weight possible from point A to point B. this is achieved by utilizing a semi tucked (whether that is exactly 45 degrees will vary by individual) which allows for contraction of the lats and Rhomboids as stabilizers and also the most advantageous leverage position/most balanced recruitment of the pecs, delts, and triceps.

Gymnasts on the other hand often seek to minimize leverage (since they are working with a fixed weight, unlike Power Lifters) in order to increase difficulty of their movements and be able to continue to build strength. The push-ups in F1 aren't done the way they are because that is the strongest/most efficient way to perform push-ups, nor is it the "only right/natural way", but instead because it develops the specific strength required to carry over to more challenging forms of bodyweight pressing exercises to come in the foundation series (which will further decrease in leverage or increase in balance/complexity/coordination demands).

Stop spreading misinformation and trying to sound like an expert on something that you are not an expert on.

Alright, get back to your workout you two, move along.

Keyboard warriors... >.<

Ravn said:

Alright, get back to your workout you two, move along.

Keyboard warriors... >.<

Good point. Will do

Just to conclude a point here about angling the arms. There fact that your elbow rotates to be able to provide for both positions, flared and tucked in means that both are natural. You change muscle recruitment with the position. Just as Keegan Y said, the reason you do it this way in F1 is because your supposed to so that you build strength needed for this approach to fitness.

If however you box for example, you need those flared pushups, because you dont give your crosses with a tucked in elbow, right? Funny thing is that in the Martial Art i do, Wing Tsun, there is always a discussion when we meet other martial artists, because we do punches from with the elbow tucked in. For US it is a more efficent movement, doesnt mean it will be for others. The facts are however that pushing from the tucked in position, to the center line going upwards provides a completely different feeling than a flared approach, its comparing apples to pears and theres no need to.

Sorry for the rant but ausdhbliausghlsidaf

Robmob said:

Just to conclude a point here about angling the arms. There fact that your elbow rotates to be able to provide for both positions, flared and tucked in means that both are natural. You change muscle recruitment with the position. Just as Keegan Y said, the reason you do it this way in F1 is because your supposed to so that you build strength needed for this approach to fitness.

If however you box for example, you need those flared pushups, because you dont give your crosses with a tucked in elbow, right? Funny thing is that in the Martial Art i do, Wing Tsun, there is always a discussion when we meet other martial artists, because we do punches from with the elbow tucked in. For US it is a more efficent movement, doesnt mean it will be for others. The facts are however that pushing from the tucked in position, to the center line going upwards provides a completely different feeling than a flared approach, its comparing apples to pears and theres no need to.

Sorry for the rant but ausdhbliausghlsidaf

Even in Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun it's not necessarily that the elbow in punching position is more powerful or more efficient; it has more to do with adhering to WC's underlying strategical principles (Centerline Theory, Immovable elbow, etc...).

Wing Chun's punches are not particularly powerful straight line punches (when compared to something like a straight right in boxing for example), but aren't really meant to be either. The system as a whole is not based on power or maximal force generation but instead pure speed, directness, and sensitivity/force redirection.

Ok, now we're really getting off topic though. :-)

Keegan Y said:

Ok, this is the last I am going to post on the subject because as Jon said, it's not really relevant to the F1 material.

Where are you getting your information? Show me even one picture of a World Record Raw bench press where the lifter is using a shoulders width, elbows fully tucked pressing position. One, and I'll concede that you're right.

Problem is you won't find a pic anywhere because that's not how World class bench presses are done. Power Lifters seek to maximize leverage, muscular recruitment, and minimize ROM because their whole sport is about moving the most weight possible from point A to point B. this is achieved by utilizing a semi tucked (whether that is exactly 45 degrees will vary by individual) which allows for contraction of the lats and Rhomboids as stabilizers and also the most advantageous leverage position/most balanced recruitment of the pecs, delts, and triceps.

Gymnasts on the other hand often seek to minimize leverage (since they are working with a fixed weight, unlike Power Lifters) in order to increase difficulty of their movements and be able to continue to build strength. The push-ups in F1 aren't done the way they are because that is the strongest/most efficient way to perform push-ups, nor is it the "only right/natural way", but instead because it develops the specific strength required to carry over to more challenging forms of bodyweight pressing exercises to come in the foundation series (which will further decrease in leverage or increase in balance/complexity/coordination demands).

Stop spreading misinformation and trying to sound like an expert on something that you are not an expert on.

It is completely relevant to F1 material. Pushups is in F1.

Secondly, WRs are not a good source of information. They are often trying to cheat to get bench the maximum weight possible. Just because that's how they did it in a WR doesn't mean it's how they train.

Third. There's only one way to do a push-up and like you said, if it carries to other harder variations of GST then maybe It's a hint right there.

Fourth. I don't need to prove to you whether I am an expert or not. However if you don't like to be educated anymore then this is my final post on this topic

Guys, just stop with the arguing.  As far as F1 is concerned, try to keep the forearms vertical at all times.

Is this a "perfect" pushup?  No.  But it serves it's purpose.

Keegan Y said:

Even in Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun it's not necessarily that the elbow in punching position is more powerful or more efficient; it has more to do with adhering to WC's underlying strategical principles (Centerline Theory, Immovable elbow, etc...).

Wing Chun's punches are not particularly powerful straight line punches (when compared to something like a straight right in boxing for example), but aren't really meant to be either. The system as a whole is not based on power or maximal force generation but instead pure speed, directness, and sensitivity/force redirection.

Ok, now we're really getting off topic though. :-)

The way I usually explain it is that YCQ is about efficiency, not straight lines. If I want to walk into the next room a straight line would take me through the wall-- very direct, not very efficient when there's an open door. The elbow in punch is one of seven basic punches, or more accurately seven different patterns of punching mechanics. I still don't know why people think there is only one punch in YCQ.

Anyway, when you aren't pressing against gravity the mechanics change completely, comparing this to pushups is not very useful IMO. Conditioning the tissue, yes. Optimal position for pushing strength, no.

Jon Douglas said:

The way I usually explain it is that YCQ is about efficiency, not straight lines. If I want to walk into the next room a straight line would take me through the wall-- very direct, not very efficient when there's an open door. The elbow in punch is one of seven basic punches, or more accurately seven different patterns of punching mechanics. I still don't know why people think there is only one punch in YCQ.

Anyway, when you aren't pressing against gravity the mechanics change completely, comparing this to pushups is not very useful IMO. Conditioning the tissue, yes. Optimal position for pushing strength, no.

Actually there isn't that much difference. Yes, the bracing is different, but optimal pushing mechanics and optimal straight line punching mechanics are very, very similar.

Sorry, said I would not continue to argue and regardless of punching mechanics I'll only post things relevant to F1 from now on as that is what this forum is for.