Why so much endurance?

Hello everybody,

I have been working on the 7 moves for the last year, since the seminar in AZ, due to injuries and a bad case of Herpes Zoster I wasnt able to train for the full year, however I did complete at least 2 full cycles (24 weeks). I have increased in weight (body mass) and strength in terms of Free Weights and Gymnastics movements, but not as much as Id like to. HBP (Pe14),SLS (Se4,)and RC(Pe13) have been the easiest to get stronger in, Manna (Pe5) progress is reasonable, PL(Pe6) is doing well ,however, SL (Pe2) and FL (Pe6) are plateued, to add salt to the wound Ive been trying to get the 60s in the Pe6 RC for testing purposes, but I havent been able to get more than 40-50 reps/sets on either FL,SL or RC.

Im stuck and Ive been stuck here for 16 weeks, at least. Im beginning to lose hope and motivation in these moves. The worst part is that the next exercise in each are much easier to do (for me), since the rep range is MUCH shorter. 

I understand that endurance training helps build up joints and acts as prehab, but i see no point when my joints are strong enough to do the more advanced exercises.

This isnt the first time Ive noticed my endurance to be very bad, I never was able to do more than 50 pushups even with specific programs, I cant seem to run long distances very well either (regular jogging), however in heavy bench pressing, sprints and any other types of strength based exercises I quickly become stronger or faster.

I know that Coach's gymnasts do a lot more than just 60s, however these kids also do gymnastics training for hours a day, which obviously synergizes with the training.

Well, im not trying to find an excuse or an easy way out, however I cant bare to train another microcyle just to fail, knowing that Im able to do the more advanced exercises.

Can somebody please shed some light on what I should do, and if there is a way I can get the Lvl 0.5 and Lvl 1 certification without getting the full 60r/s on these exercises.

Thank you very much and excuse the long post

Robert

Personally I'm not a fan of all the endurance time frames either, but I'm just baring with it.

A good thing to go with the higher reps/holds is it targets not only the endurance aspect of the muscles, but it also means the joints and ligaments are going to be under tension for longer periods of time too. This will allow them to stay caught up with the muscles.

What type of weekly schedule are you following?

If you aren't already doing so, maybe try upping the frequency and reducing the intensity slightly. This increased frequency of practice with reduced intensity/fatigue should result in you becoming more efficient in the exercises.

Robmob said:

Can somebody please shed some light on what I should do, and if there is a way I can get the Lvl 0.5 and Lvl 1 certification without getting the full 60r/s on these exercises.

 

Huh?

I'm with you on this one. My endurance is horrible and I can't seem to break through the endurance aspect and it is more than frustrating but I think if you increase by a smaller increment everyweek rather than what is allocated in the schedule then you can do it. For example if you pass week 7 but fail week 9 then instead of doing 4x48 do 4x42 then 5X42 then 5x 48. If that jump in intensity is too much then simply do smaller increments always having the 4th as a deload and doing it in cycles

- Most of the long static holds are reinforcing fundamental body positions. The dues you pay now will be repaid over and over again in future training. You want positions like hollow body, arch body and plank to be burned so deeply into your psyche that you take those shapes unconsciously.

- As noted, the low intensity, high-rep scheme improves tendon strength.

- At that level of resistance, a high volume is required to develop muscular strength.

- You will need that kind of work capacity later on. When you're working on F3, M1, R1, H1 and H2 all at the same time, you'll be thankful for the endurance you build now.

Robmob said:

Can somebody please shed some light on what I should do, and if there is a way I can get the Lvl 0.5 and Lvl 1 certification without getting the full 60r/s on these exercises.

Robert

Unless you have a note from a doctor explaining why your medical condition prevents you from competing a given exercise, there are no exemptions to the level test. If you are having trouble with given exercise, you should:

- double check that you mastered all previous exercises and iM's with good form (not just one mastery set, but five)

- double check that you are performing the current exercise with good form

- consider dropping back a mini-cycle

Joshua Slocum said:

Unless you have a note from a doctor explaining why your medical condition prevents you from competing a given exercise, there are no exemptions to the level test. 

 

Haha, reminds of PE class as a kid. The lengths people would go to, to get that letter form the doc, or the folks

Seriously though, I think I could get a note like that from my doc regarding my rusted-in-place, paraplegic swivel hips...

Ravn said:

Seriously though, I think I could get a note like that from my doc regarding my rusted-in-place, paraplegic swivel hips...

I know a guy who got shot in the spine in Afghanistan.  I think he could get an exemption for arch holds...

You have been blessed with type 1a and b fibres. You just have to suck it up and do the work. When you are smashing through the low rep work spare a thought for the people who have type 2 fibres and love the 60 second holds. A least you will develop perseverance

If Coach lets you go up on 40-50 reps someone will then ask if they can go up with 30 reps. The program will then not work.

Mark Collins said:

You have been blessed with type 1a and b fibres. You just have to suck it up and do the work. When you are smashing through the low rep work spare a thought for the people who have type 2 fibres and love the 60 second holds. A least you will develop perseverance

If Coach lets you go up on 40-50 reps someone will then ask if they can go up with 30 reps. The program will then not work.

I know you probably just typed that in a hurry Mark and didn't realize it, but you mixed up the fiber types.

The OP likely has a tendency towards type 2A and 2B (fast twitch) fibers, not type 1 (slow twitch).

Lots of people are realizing though that they simply have been negligent in training the strength endurance of their core muscles (and flexibility/mobility) since beginning Foundation/Handstand. It's simply going to take time for your body to adapt to this new stimulus (type 2A fibers can be trained to take on type 1 characteristics in many cases with the right training).

If you have to keep going through weeks 5-9 or 9-12 then you just have to do it. I know it gets monotonous and there seems like no end in sight. Suck it up like Mark said and do the work.. I know I have said to myself why 60 reps here why 15 reps there. Really though it kinda gives you something to strieve for in the end.

And you can also just repeate 1 week all the way and test what works for yoy

Yep. Early Saturday morning.

Mark Collins said:

You have been blessed with type 1a and b fibres. You just have to suck it up and do the work. When you are smashing through the low rep work spare a thought for the people who have type 2 fibres and love the 60 second holds.

That's such a good point Mark! Never occurred to me. Yay!

Keegan Y said:

What type of weekly schedule are you following?

If you aren't already doing so, maybe try upping the frequency and reducing the intensity slightly. This increased frequency of practice with reduced intensity/fatigue should result in you becoming more efficient in the exercises.

Im following the 3*week training schedule, where I interchangeably do one of the two splits twice. I used to do 5*week but it was just too much for me. Also consider that Im in my Senior year in high school and need to study a lot.

Jon Douglas said:

Huh?

What I asked (which has been answered) is if it is possible to get the Level (you are level 1.5) without actually achieving the "full mastery" and what you think is a better idea, to keep going or to skip it.

ausswe said:

I'm with you on this one. My endurance is horrible and I can't seem to break through the endurance aspect and it is more than frustrating but I think if you increase by a smaller increment everyweek rather than what is allocated in the schedule then you can do it. For example if you pass week 7 but fail week 9 then instead of doing 4x48 do 4x42 then 5X42 then 5x 48. If that jump in intensity is too much then simply do smaller increments always having the 4th as a deload and doing it in cycles

Its good to know Im not alone here, thanks for the idea ill try it next cycle (im on week 11)

Joshua Slocum said:

- Most of the long static holds are reinforcing fundamental body positions. The dues you pay now will be repaid over and over again in future training. You want positions like hollow body, arch body and plank to be burned so deeply into your psyche that you take those shapes unconsciously.

- As noted, the low intensity, high-rep scheme improves tendon strength.

- At that level of resistance, a high volume is required to develop muscular strength.

- You will need that kind of work capacity later on. When you're working on F3, M1, R1, H1 and H2 all at the same time, you'll be thankful for the endurance you build now.

Excellent points I was looking for something like this, thanks

Joshua Slocum said:

Unless you have a note from a doctor explaining why your medical condition prevents you from competing a given exercise, there are no exemptions to the level test. If you are having trouble with given exercise, you should:

- double check that you mastered all previous exercises and iM's with good form (not just one mastery set, but five)

- double check that you are performing the current exercise with good form

- consider dropping back a mini-cycle

Ive checked the previous exercises

I believe its good form, or as good as i can do (I often record myself and compare to the course or upload the videos here)

I have considered it enough times, ill do what ausswe suggested instead. 

Mark Collins said:

You have been blessed with type 1a and b fibres. You just have to suck it up and do the work. When you are smashing through the low rep work spare a thought for the people who have type 2 fibres and love the 60 second holds. A least you will develop perseverance

If Coach lets you go up on 40-50 reps someone will then ask if they can go up with 30 reps. The program will then not work.

I figured as much, ill think about the others when im having fun with the short holds ^^

I see where you are coming from, but its not out of lazyness that i asked, i can do the next steps on each exercise, and im getting really frustrated, but ill just suck it up.

Keegan Y said:

I know you probably just typed that in a hurry Mark and didn't realize it, but you mixed up the fiber types.

The OP likely has a tendency towards type 2A and 2B (fast twitch) fibers, not type 1 (slow twitch).

Lots of people are realizing though that they simply have been negligent in training the strength endurance of their core muscles (and flexibility/mobility) since beginning Foundation/Handstand. It's simply going to take time for your body to adapt to this new stimulus (type 2A fibers can be trained to take on type 1 characteristics in many cases with the right training).

I understand its gonna take time, but does it really need to take half a year? Do you have any hints on getting the type2 fibers to take up the type1 characteristics?

Thanks to everybody, I really appreciate that so many people answered and contributed to helping. I guess that the best thing to do is to just stay at it.

Have a nice day 

I don't think it's possible to say anything about the time frame or mechanisms involved in adapting the type 2a fibers towards type 1 or type 2b characteristics. I think this is a very grey area in science and might very well be variable from person to person as well.
But doing heavy squats for some time will adapt you towards 2b, long distance running will adapt you towards 1 (in the legs). So I guess it's the same for gymnastics.

Don't worry about it, just work out, have fun and adaptations and progressions will come in time. But enjoy the way, not the goal.

I don't think you can change your fibre type a great deal. Once you accept what you have got it is empowering. If you have fast twitch fibres and you master the exercises with 5x60 it is greater achievement than mastering the 5x5 which you are more suited to. When you finally master the exercises that take 6 months you will be far happier than the ones you mastered in a week. You will also remember the ones that took 6 months and the lesson of perseverance will help you in the future.

Yeah, what Kage said about adapting the fibers is what I would say. Unfortunately everyone is going to be different in that regard, so no one can really tell you how long it's going to take.

How close to failure are you pushing your sets?

Keegan Y said:

Yeah, what Kage said about adapting the fibers is what I would say. Unfortunately everyone is going to be different in that regard, so no one can really tell you how long it's going to take.

How close to failure are you pushing your sets?

Today for example I timed the sets (normaly i count them in my head since i cant see the phone from the top of the pullupbar) and I did 55,42,28,30,30 seconds, each set was to failure, literally i was shacking and i started to go down on the bar.

Other times i can do the sets completely without failure, but the last two weeks where as close as it gets.

Get a metronome.

RiQC said:

Get a metronome.

Or a metronome app for your phone. Set it to 60 beats per minute.

Or the ultratimer app for your phone, where you can make many different work and rest intervals with different sound effects AND play music at the same time.

Joshua Slocum said:

- Most of the long static holds are reinforcing fundamental body positions. The dues you pay now will be repaid over and over again in future training. You want positions like hollow body, arch body and plank to be burned so deeply into your psyche that you take those shapes unconsciously.

- As noted, the low intensity, high-rep scheme improves tendon strength.

- At that level of resistance, a high volume is required to develop muscular strength.

- You will need that kind of work capacity later on. When you're working on F3, M1, R1, H1 and H2 all at the same time, you'll be thankful for the endurance you build now.

 

Im also woundering about this. In the beginning of f1 you learn too do more endurance traning exercies (of curse strenght too but not too that degree).

Anyway these exercies are in the beginning... what about when you get too foundation 3-4? How will this early f1 exercies help you too master the front lever or the planche? At this time you prob are not doing them anymore since you at this point have mastered them long ago. And B will you even still be able too do them since the further you go into the foundation seriers the more strenght oriented it will be. When you are at f3-f4 will you even be able too do this f1 exercies again? Do you still have the endurance for it? I heard a quote - You are only  good at what you are doing.   (Since you dont do the f1 anymore.)

Jure Rakuljic said:

Im also woundering about this. In the beginning of f1 you learn too do more endurance traning exercies (of curse strenght too but not too that degree).

Anyway these exercies are in the beginning... what about when you get too foundation 3-4? How will this early f1 exercies help you too master the front lever or the planche? At this time you prob are not doing them anymore since you at this point have mastered them long ago. And B will you even still be able too do them since the further you go into the foundation seriers the more strenght oriented it will be. When you are at f3-f4 will you even be able too do this f1 exercies again? Do you still have the endurance for it? I heard a quote - You are only  good at what you are doing.   (Since you dont do the f1 anymore.)

Well, I choose to include the hard 15, 30 or 60 rep or second exercises in my warmup, to A: warm up, and B: keep volume high.

So, before beginning SL work, for which I'm currently at F2, I'll do 60 seconds ABH, then 60 reps ABR, then perhaps 15 headstand reverse leglifts, and then I'm ready for the work sets.

For RC, I'll do a set of pullups, mixed grip pullups left/right, and chinups, switching grips every two reps, then on to 60 seconds of chin up static hang, then on to the work sets.

For HBP, I'll do 17 reps of pushups (aiming for 21), then 11 reps of PPP (aiming for 15), then onto 8 parallel bar dips, then I'm ready for the work sets. 

You get the picture. You'll maintain your basics AND keep a high volume.