Front and back walkovers/limbers

GageClawson said:

Very eye opening information in this thread. I have been attending an adult gymnastics class and have been moderately successful in learning the back handspring and back tuck. However according to this thread it would seem I am nowhere near ready to perform these skills. Would you advise I forget about training these skills for the time being?

How's your bridge?

My former "coach" trying to make me do handsprings when I could clearly not even bend my back and had paper shoulders was the reason I stopped listening to his advices (and magically, stopped hurting myself repeatdly in the process). Wish I stepped upon Coach Sommer's series a lot earlier, would've sparred me 3 years of hard banging for the body, at least it is clear to me that a progression must be followed and I'm not tempted to bypass exercises now.

There should be no other approach to strength training tbh. Well as I'm still in F1 limbers are not for me either yet then(can't wait though, it's one of the moves I really want to be able to perform). thanks for your wisdom in training coach (btw, my shoulder is totally healed now and they're stronger than ever, got rid of all the tendinitis even in the wrists too). On this matter I liked Ido's exercises for back, do you cover this in some fashion (similar or not) in the later foundation series ?

 

Blythe said:

This is so fabulous! I was just talking to a fellow coach about 3 of the points in your post, and then you write this, so I feel validated ( and like I'm really knowledgeable, ha ha!)! Yay!

Coach Sommer, once again, so impressed with your generosity, going into such depth with these posts. Thank you so much.

You are very welcome, Blythe.  But I have truly just barely scratched the surface with these two posts.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach, even this tipbit of information is quite illuminating, are then any resources that you would recommend for developing basic kinaesthetic awareness as outlined in your previous post?

I would imagine that there are many resources available for developing the 'basics'.  A concern here is that most 'homemade' materials created by those who are not high level coaches will undoubtedly be flawed in the finer details of execution.  This is not necessarily an issue if your end goal is only the most basic of basics, however it does become a significant problem if a student aspires to higher levels of acrobatic movement; they will find themselves constantly running into developmental roadblocks due to their flawed technical preparation.

Learned correctly, basics are building blocks which support the learning of high level skills.  Learned incorrectly, they become merely deadends leading nowhere.

The technical aspects and progressions required for developing kinesthic awareness at the high level I outlined in Allan's training as a young athlete are very involved and require the personal oversight of an expert coach in order to perfect each step along the way.  One of the main reasons that Allan was able to progress so rapidly was that his preparation, both physically and technically, was correctly supervised and executed from day one.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That makes sense Coach, I have no illusions that I will be able to perform high level moves. My kinaesthetic awareness is quite poor so I'll have a go developing the very basics that you outlined earlier, forward rolls etc. If I persevere I might be able to perform a decent cartwheel in a few years

Thanks again for the input

Bipocni said:

How's your bridge?

I believe my ROM is fairly decent, pushing my shoulders back, locked arms, legs as straight as possible. However I am quite weak in this position and maintaining correct form is strenuous and I cannot hold it for long. I have not worked bridges directly for a while since I am focusing on Foundation.   

GageClawson said:

... I have not worked bridges directly for a while since I am focusing on Foundation.   

Perhaps not directly, but you have been working on all of the preparatory bridge elements that lead to a successful bridge later.  

First things first.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Bridge development is already paired with front lever development in the Foundation series.  At that level of training, no additional work is needed.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

You make it sound like a back limber shouldn't be trained for until a front lever has been achieved.

Bipocni said:

You make it sound like a back limber shouldn't be trained for until a front lever has been achieved.

Given where F2 leaves off in FL>iM, do you really think a bridge will be the final mobility element?

"Something that very few people appear to understand is that mastering a single skill so that it is flawless will in turn spread that high quality of movement to all of their other skills."

This is such an issue in any adult practice I've witnessed that I feel it needs to be repeated. Be it strength training, acrobatics, dance, yoga, martial arts, the list goes on, the single biggest issue is moving forward when basics have only been touched not mastered. It always causes problems down the road.

Wrt limbers, they take a great deal of prep, particularly for adults. I've seen far too many supposed intermediate yoga students thrown into 'drop backs' without proper prep or understanding of the movement. The result, lower back pain, frustration and eventual quitting.

We NEED more qualified teachers who aren't afraid to say NO, and who can impart the importance of basics while simultaneously making them fun and interesting.

Cole Dano said:

"Something that very few people appear to understand is that mastering a single skill so that it is flawless will in turn spread that high quality of movement to all of their other skills."

This is such an issue in any adult practice I've witnessed that I feel it needs to be repeated. Be it strength training, acrobatics, dance, yoga, martial arts, the list goes on, the single biggest issue is moving forward when basics have only been touched not mastered. It always causes problems down the road.

Wrt limbers, they take a great deal of prep, particularly for adults. I've seen far too many supposed intermediate yoga students thrown into 'drop backs' without proper prep or understanding of the movement. The result, lower back pain, frustration and eventual quitting.

We NEED more qualified teachers who aren't afraid to say NO, and who can impart the importance of basics while simultaneously making them fun and interesting.

Omg, so true. Everytime I go to yoga, or see my girlfriend do her daily yoga, they are way ahead of themselves. She never listens to me, and I am sure the other yoga practitioners wouldn't be so nice if they heard my critiques as well.

I think commerce plays a major role also. When someone is just starting his gym he wants to have customers as much as possible (this is inversely correlated with the amount of money that he makes). If he gives people a hard reality check, most get hurt and walk away to look for a nicer teacher. I see this for example in the gym I train in. The coaches sometimes give '15 min ab routine for sixpack abs', when they know in reality there is a lot wrong with this approach. They told me that there is a lot of request for this, so they give it, even though they know better.

So this made me think and I have a basic question for coach Sommer/Dano (or another coach on this forum that teaches what he/she wants, instead of what the client desires). How do/did you balance your commercial aspirations with your real self/practice/training. I know that if you are top in what you do this is not a big problem, but what about someone who aspires to be top but is still beginning (and not a top coach) and wants to make a living from being a sports coach without having to train stuff he doesn't want?

I have right now I real example in mind. A friend of mine is actually in this situation. He is a trainer at a fitness center and aspires to be a top coach. He is also an entrepreneur and wants to have is own gym. He is very motivated/has lots of passion and trains a lot and during a conversation this came up. I told him that quality is very important, but he told me the above story and the struggle with money. I realised the 'paradox' and also realised: I don't know, so maybe the coaches at this community have some valuable advice.

Thanks in advance.

Bingo Rachid!

I've always thought that was a cop out. A good teacher can have standards and still keep students interest. But it takes more than just going through the motions, you have to be involved, I've had vey good retention rates once a student gets involved with my way of teaching. They know that they can trust I have their best interests and long term progress at heart.

Maybe your friend should consider getting certified with Coach and be part of a group that stands for quality. In any case he needs to find a way to distinguish himself from the average trainer so people know he is unique in his market.

I appreciate your (honest) reply Cole! Thanks

I forget also to mention that he told me to introduce quality only after financial success. What do you think about this 'strategy'?

Quality instruction attracts quality students. It is really that simple.

Yes, if someone is "ethically flexible" it is indeed possible to get off to a faster start in the short term by promising the moon and then delivering a patch of dirt instead. Many gyms, personal trainers and online coaches use this model paired with contracts or non-refundable purchased blocks of time to offset the inevitable customer dissatisfaction and high degree of customer turnover.

In comparison, many of my top students have been with me for over ten years.

To my mind a client's primary choice is to decide if they want to pursue excellence and if they trust me to take them there. If the answer if yes, then I take over the training and provide them with what they need to do, how they need to do it and when they need to do it.

As I occasionally need to remind my own athletes; "There is one member of this conversation who is a long time US National Team Coach and who has trained National Champions; and the last time I checked - you are not it. For this training process to be successful there needs to be a division of labor; your responsibities as a student and my responsibilities as the coach. Your responsibilities as the student are to decide to pursue excellence and then to strive to implement my instructions and corrections to the best of your ability. My responsibilities are to provide the very best training available and to hold you accountable for living up to the highest possible standards."

Outside of that initial choice to pursue excellence, I am not overly concerned with what the client or the athlete 'thinks' they need. This is training, not coddling.

Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer

Thanks for the detailed answer coach!

Coach,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write posts such as these; especially the long ones. They are so informative. I would love (at least I think, haha) to train and learn under you; even as a young adult rather than as a kid.

What would you recommend a young adult do if wanting to learn gymnastics acrobatics such as those you described, but doesn't have access to a coach such as yourself? How does one find another coach/teacher who has the same demand for quality and who can train an adult from rank beginner to a decent acrobat?

I never got the chance as a kid to do gymnastics or anything like it. I want to try to achieve what is possible for me as a young adult and throughout my life.

Cody H said:

Coach,

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to write posts such as these; especially the long ones. They are so informative. I would love (at least I think, haha) to train and learn under you; even as a young adult rather than as a kid.

 

What would you recommend a young adult do if wanting to learn gymnastics acrobatics such as those you described, but doesn't have access to a coach such as yourself? How does one find another coach/teacher who has the same demand for quality and who can train an adult from rank beginner to a decent acrobat?

 

I never got the chance as a kid to do gymnastics or anything like it. I want to try to achieve what is possible for me as a young adult and throughout my life.

Probably the best thing to do would be look at who they've trained.  If they've trained champions, it's probably a safe bet that they're a quality coach.

So I've gone this week from the form shown here earlier to consistent bridge hops with straight arms and legs with a handstand hold and negative pike press, working on eliminating that hop but already feeling how to pull through the back.

I have been training;
Back-
10 bridge wall walk focusing on straight legs
10 bridge hops focusing on reducing the hop

Front-
10 limited Rom reverse planche-- lowering to my limit from HS and pulling back up to straight.
10 stands from bridge (again, focus on straight limbs and feet together)

each training day (5* a week). Have I understood how to train these correctly? My intention is to build each half of the movement correctly before putting them together (as the full reps are subpar for now). Getting comfortable fast and feeling excellent, any corrections or advice welcomed

Feel like posting an updated video?

Bipocni said:

Feel like posting an updated video?

Better to wait another week or so I think; it's new to me so there are changes happening day to day as I get more comfortable and confident with it. Will put one up later this week maybe.

The approach seems solid though, right? Working each half?

Jon Douglas said:

The approach seems solid though, right? Working each half?

Hey, don't ask me.  I still view the back limber as everest, while I'm struggling up a suburban hill.  But your idea has an internal logical consistency, so the approach seems valid to me...

seems like you're hitting your body from all angles with this as a whole unit (limbers + SL neg's)

Jon Douglas said:

So I've gone this week from the form shown here earlier to consistent bridge hops with straight arms and legs with a handstand hold and negative pike press, working on eliminating that hop but already feeling how to pull through the back.

I have been training;

Back-

10 bridge wall walk focusing on straight legs

10 bridge hops focusing on reducing the hop

Front-

10 limited Rom reverse planche-- lowering to my limit from HS and pulling back up to straight.

10 stands from bridge (again, focus on straight limbs and feet together)

each training day (5* a week). Have I understood how to train these correctly? My intention is to build each half of the movement correctly before putting them together (as the full reps are subpar for now). Getting comfortable fast and feeling excellent, any corrections or advice welcomed

In case you aren't already doing them in between sets: I would add in some Jefferson Curls. They have a sort of healing effect after the back arch.  Have fun  .