F1 + H1, + Weights? Or Supplemental Work?

I've seen this thrown about briefly in other topics, but I'm curious as to whether there's any way to integrate a few key lifts throughout a week's program - whether before or after the F1/H2 training, or whether one can add more work at the end of relevant bodyweight exercises.

 

My reason for this is that at present, I ideally want to continue a bench press / deadlift / overhead press at least once a week. I'd rather not lose elements of size / strength that I've gained from progressing on these lifts. At present I can manage multiple sets of weighted dips just fine, for example, but due to capacity I tested down to the Week 9 stage of HBP/PE2 - i.e., my body wasn't used to the minimal rest of the F1 program. It's good, but still worried that giving up other work such as weighted dips - or the bench press, deadlift, etc - may 'set me back' in the interim.

 

Is this just a case of 2 steps forward in the long term, 1 step back in the short term, or is there a way of integrating a couple of key lifts into the program?

 

Apologies, as I'm sure it's been discussed ad nauseum, but the topics I saw - including the F1 stickies - only went over it briefly.

As an addendum to the above - I should probably note that one of the reasons I was utilising these lifts was to gain muscle mass while eating at a surplus. I'm not entirely sure where F1/H1 will fit into that kind of concept.

Considering that a few people on the board keep doing more advanced stuff after their main workout is done (F1/H1) I think you should be fine with a little bit of weight lifting.

Try it out and see if you can find a balanced shedule so you are not overtraining or anything.

You don't really have anything to gain by supplementing Foundation with additional upper-body strength work. In the long run you'll benefit most by focusing all your energy and recovery time on Foundation work. In the short term, your max bench and max dip may drop a little due to de-adaptation of the nervous system. You can prevent this by doing "maintenance sets": 1-2 sets after your Foundation work, with low reps. 

 

For lower body work, supplementing with some weights is a reasonable course of action. Several forum members have been enjoying success with squatting and deadlifting a few times a week.  

If you really are focusing only on size and strength (in general and not on those specific lifts), several users have testified to making gains in size on their BP/OHP/etc. after following Foundation despite neglecting lift-specific training.

I haven't lifted in a good while and I can actually DL 225lb easier now than when I tested it as my 1RP max.

Thanks for the replies. It's not so much focused around the lifts per se, as continuing to gain muscle mass / strength. I'm sure F1/H2 will accommodate the strength portion long term, but when it comes to putting on size I'm not sure if the early F1/H2 work alone is enough on a 4 day schedule. I've only done a couple days so far, and while some of it is difficult, not feeling any of the hypertrophy effects etc I'd normally feel from weights.

 

Was thinking of something like this:

 

Monday:

F1 + 3x8 light BP, 3x5-8 light dips, 3x5 Chins.

 

Tuesday:

F1/H2 + Boxing

 

Wednesday:

F1 + 3x5 moderate DL, 3x5 OHP

 

Thursday:

F1/H2 + Jiujitsu

 

Friday:

F1 + BP/Dips/Chins (as on Monday).

 

I figure it makes more sense to do things like BP/Dips on the Mon/Wed/Fri given similar upper body muscles are being worked, rather than adding work onto the alternating days when they should be resting.

 

Alternatively I could just go to the gym on Saturday and do a myriad of BP/Dips/Chins/DL once a week, but not sure how practical this would be for hypertrophy/muscle mass purposes either.

 

Or - am I approaching it wrongly, and there have been members gaining actual mass, strength aside, from F1/H2 work alone? Adding in the time constraints of boxing/jiujitsu does play it around a bit as well.

Wow your doing a lot, some people would say your doing too much. I myself had been doing weighted dips/pullups along with squats and DL before I started this program, have since stopped doing the upper body work in favor of F1+H1, but I have noticed my military press has dropped (not that I am worried) as far as gaining mass... gaining significant mass also requires lots of food and rest and minimal stress among many other factors, otherwise I would look like the hulk for all the work I do in a day. Honestly at the end of the day, what do you really want the most? thats what becomes your priority, everything else is just filler.

Your thinking is flawed.

If you ever expect to make good progress, you must learn to put first things first.

Anything that distracts from your chosen goal must be set aside until after your goal is achieved.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Anything that distracts from your chosen goal must be set aside until after your goal is achieved.

 

I can testify to this as before I had a moment of 'clarity' I was doing heavy pull ups and heavy dips. Made my strong points stronger (and my weak points weaker...). When I had a BIG reality check about mobility thanks to some of the excellent articles of coach Sommer and others I realised how 'crippled' I actually was. I stopped the heavy work and started working on mobility. Now my mobility is respectable (still working on it....it's off coarse a never ending story)...but I can tell you that I'm much more powerful and stronger than ever. I even have some hypertrophy in 'unexpected' places, more freedom and I am a happier person overall. 

I would drop the bench, chin ups and dips. These muscle will get hit thoroughly with F1. The gymnastic program will give you decent muscle size that is far more functional than a bodybuilding approach. What's the point in having big pecs, lats and shoulders if you can't hold your arms overhead because they are too stiff?

I have noticed a huge improvement in my Crossfit with F1 and H1 and I have put on muscle. I spent years trying to put on muscle with a similar approach to what you're doing, but it never worked.

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. Going from the advice in this thread, I've decided to give just F1/H2 a shot while keeping up the boxing / jiujitsu for cardio. Will see what my results are like following the 12 week cycle...

alwaysthen said:

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated. Going from the advice in this thread, I've decided to give just F1/H2 a shot while keeping up the boxing / jiujitsu for cardio. Will see what my results are like following the 12 week cycle...

That sounds like a perfect plan. F1 and H1 are perfectly suited to Jitz (though I'm a little surprised that you only do BJJ once per week ). The only thing I would recommend is looking beyond a 12 week cycle, especially if you're looking for hypertrophy or changes in body composition. This is a long term program that starts with addressing strength and mobility gaps. Some people have seen hypertrophy early, but if you're already fairly fit and strong, it may take quite a bit longer to see visible benefits.

 

Improvement in mobility and overall body shape takes patience and dedication. The risk is that if you stop after 12 weeks because your physique hasn't changed, you'll never enjoy the substantial benefits that you could have had after 2 or more years of dedicated work.

 

My suggestion is to pick a program that appears complete and well thought out, and to stick to it for at least a year. F + H in addition to the upcoming M series seem to fit this bill perfectly, especially for someone like you in whom relative strength, mobility and agility is important.

Initially I'd scaled back the BJJ / Boxing to allow for potential gains - given it's a struggle for me to gain mass as is, didn't want to burn up too many calories training. I might increase the BJJ a little now, given I get the impression the GST won't (initially) burn as much fuel, so to speak, even though it's demanding in other ways. Will see how it goes. Thanks for the advice re: the cycle. Even if body composition won't change so much in 12 weeks, I imagine that I should hopefully still see other improvements over that time frame nonetheless. Rings have been ordered and are on the way!

I initially had issues with Jitz affecting my recovery but it was because one of the people leading the class would turn the warm-ups into 30 min conditioning sessions (push-ups, squats, burpees etc...). After several chats, we all decided that our time would be better spent drilling technique and rolling, and that that we could do our strength training and conditioning in separate dedicated sessions for those that were interested. That being said, rolling hard with a >200 lb guy who's trying to smash you can also affect recovery

 

Enjoy the journey.

I know the feeling - it's a little frustrating to have done something like bench the day before, and then the instructor asks for 50 push ups as a warm up. Doesn't help the recovery much, or build up any of the skills you're there to train. Let people do their own s&c and just do the skill work, imho.

I'm going well so far, definitely feels like it's doing something and filling some of my gaps- but also feeling I'll need to work my bjj/cardio in smartly, as it doesn't feel like it 'drains' the body of energy / burns the calories like a weight session might - at least, thus far. May wind up needing to alternate gst/bjj days, or somesuch, fitting both in same day is presently proving tricky... Any suggestions

strength in the morning (your workout) and skill at night (anything ways away from your working workout, say evening or afternoon), could be an alternative

Advice: all the time that you were dedicate to lift weights, is time that you can better spent on working on your mobility/flexibility.

 

I dropped olympic lifting month and a half ago and my progress with F1/HS1/mobility has been o_O to me; I've made a ton of progress on everything. I dropped rock climbing from my regular basis too. Now, just squatting 1/2 times a week for legs and nothing else.

 

Now, the time that I'm devoting to mobility is making gains on Side Lever PE1, MN/PE2... 

 

F1 + HS1 + mobility/flexibility + maybe some heavy squatting 1/2 times a week + HIIT sprints 1/2 times a week = FIT AS HELL!

I'd love to throw in some squats for legs but an issue with my hip flexor (still slowly healing) has stopped me from pursuing it - one of the very things that got me interested in bodyweight training again and trying to fix my imbalances etc.

 

I'll see if I can fit in the F1 workouts in the morning if doing it same-day as skill training, though it may be difficult to do so pre-work - have to head out to a park to use the rings, for example.

 

Thanks for the advice regarding mobility - I actually noticed already some slight, gradual improvements in a few areas purely from some of the mobility work alone, in particular the d/bell stretches. Can imagine that kind of dynamic work would apply to something like jiujitsu in a number of ways.

 

Once again, thankyou for all the feedback and advice.

alwaysthen said:

Can imagine that kind of dynamic work would apply to something like jiujitsu in a number of ways.

It seriously does. It is blowing my mind currently how much better I am moving on the ground with 'smarter' muscles, good mobility and stronger grounding body mechanics, having return to Australia and resumed BJJ training at my old school.

Jon Douglas said:

It seriously does. It is blowing my mind currently how much better I am moving on the ground with 'smarter' muscles, good mobility and stronger grounding body mechanics, having return to Australia and resumed BJJ training at my old school.

I wish I was doing this program when I was training BJJ. I can imagine the Planche would help to get out of the arm bars.

Mark Collins said:

I wish I was doing this program when I was training BJJ. I can imagine the Planche would help to get out of the arm bars.

Actually, I think the Bulgarian dips and pulls are some of the most useful things. Getting your shoulders used to that kind of twisting under load means techniques need to be applied close to 100% perfectly to put them on; gives you a lot of leeway to escape before you're put in a bad position.

Otherwise, hip and waist mobility including lats are the most immediately obvious beneficial improvements.

I could see the loaded shoulder rotation with the bulgarian dips would help a lot.

How often do you guys train BJJ while on Foundation, and how do you split your time between drilling/sparring? I'm looking to find the balance because BJJ beats me up sometimes and can obviously affect my recovery. Trying to drill more than roll, but I want to get better at both. Any pro tips?

fitwell said:

How often do you guys train BJJ while on Foundation, and how do you split your time between drilling/sparring? I'm looking to find the balance because BJJ beats me up sometimes and can obviously affect my recovery. Trying to drill more than roll, but I want to get better at both. Any pro tips?

My teacher is very technical and we spend more time drilling than rolling (generally near 1 hour each, but often 75:45 rolling or 90:30, always on the drill side unless regional or higher competition is coming), and I find that amongst my group I work the least hard doing the same drills, which i mostly put down to GST movement efficiency. I train GST 5 days a week and don't have problems.

 

I might be able to do a bit more, but IMO it's more about making sure I blank off two rest/active recovery-style days per week (Wed/Sun atm). As long as I have those I'm okay with doing GST in the mornings and martial arts in the evenings 4-5x a week, although sometimes I find I have trouble eating enough. Some days I go harder, some days I want to drill perfect technique 100x, but I don't find that I drag my feet at all.

 

BJJ/MMA is Tues/Thurs/Sat for me. I would much rather train F7 plus BJJ Tues/Thurs/Sat and take Mon/Wed/Fri as rest days than add even less work on my current rest days, based on my experience of what works for me