Gymnastic bodies vs Ido portal method

I think it's odd he doesn't really believe an adult could achieve a manna

The Wykydtron said:

I think it's odd he doesn't really believe an adult could achieve a manna

I think that what he is really saying is that he doesn't think that he can achieve a manna... hence, he maybe doesn't think that anyone else can...

Frankly speaking, I also don't think I can achieve a manna; yet that doesn't stop me from training for it.

(Sorry for the monster post. Read sections you're not interested in if you like)

Wow, I agree with MT Nordic that there's a whole lot of emotional opinion based ranking going on with not a lot of actually answering the question. This thread blew up since I last saw it and was about to post, but put it off to a better time.
I, too, have experience with Ido Portal's online coaching, as well as with BtGB and Foundation work. I have been reading the forums here and training on and off for the last 3 years, and I have been paying attention to Ido's stuff for about as long. I've read almost everything Ido has ever written online and couple month ago I did a stint with his Online Coaching (with great results), so I think I have some qualification to speak on this subject. Let's try to clear some things up about Ido, and about the differences between his method and Coach's method.

I think this is a really cool discussion actually, because Coach Sommer and Ido Portal, although different, are the only comparable leaders in the world the business of teaching adults bodyweight strength, mobility, and movement on a large scale (as far as I can tell). Both have incredibly high standards, both are doing amazing work with amazing results, and both are rapidly becoming more popular.

By the way, the answer to the original post is in parts 4 and 5, mainly 5, if you just want that.

1. The guru thing: I think B1214N is right that Ido never said that, but it doesn't really matter, it's a stupid thing to get hung up on. It's not really in his character to say; he's realistically confident, not arrogant.
    
2. The manna thing: a quote from the FB picture: "Not convinced this skill (The Manna) is attainable with my structure nor have I ever seen one performed by a person who achieved it as an adult. (I'm sure there are but they are probably inclined structurally to it to a large extent)." I think most of us would agree with him actually, it is yet to be seen whether or not Foundation, or anything for that matter, can take most adults (with the requisite commitment) all the way through to a manna. It's possible (and we're certainly all hoping for it!) but we just have to wait and see.
    
3. The attitude thing: If any of you read the Reddit posts swhitley provided, I sort of have a rant for those that dismiss Ido by making him out to be an asshole. Feel free to skip this if you don't care.
   
   Ido teaches by traveling and constantly meeting new people, and for the last 5+ years has heard people continuously tell him "OMG, wow, you're so amazing, you're so special, I could never do that, you must be so gifted, I wish I could do that", all of whom casually idolize him and simply write off his incredible skill and knowledge as plain old talent. And he's gotten fed up with politely saying thousands of times over that no, he's NOT special, that he worked his ass off for years to get where he is, that it's insulting to just write it off as 'talent', that ANYONE can do what he can do if they just committed to it. His bitterness comes from constantly seeing people who don't believe in themselves; people who say they want to eat better, be stronger, be faster, move better, or sleep better, but never take the initiative to do those things or research on their own to find out how; people who can't keep a routine for longer than three weeks; people that don't understand the value of commitment and hard work, and, ultimately, who don't own up to any of it. They think that some magic pill will make them lose weight, that some new machine will make them stronger, that some new gadget will make them better, when really it is only THEM that can do any of those things, but when they fail, they never put the blame where it belongs (usually on themselves). So now he still says it, just not politely anymore. And unfortunately, these people make up the majority of the population in one way or another.
   Coach knows all this, and repeats it just as Ido does. He just uses fewer expletives . He's trying to make people realize that they are in control of their life. It just comes off a bit strong.
    
4. General subject differences: Michaël and MT Nordic are right. Ido and Coach teach different things, and they really shouldn't be evaluated on the same quality scale because they have different intents, so let's stop being so dismissive here. As Michaël mentioned, Coach does everything from a gymnastics point of view, and that is the framework he operates in. This is his specialty, this is what he teaches. Ido on the other hand is one hell of a generalist. He uses a lot of Coach's stuff, but he operates through a lens where uninhibited artistic movement is the goal, and incorporates much more. Following Coach down his line, you get incredibly feats of GST with the mobility to match it and stay healthy. Following Ido down the line, you may do a lot of GST, but there are many things that get cut out because to do them you must specialize to an extent that you sacrifice other abilities. His method includes a moderate amount of ring work, a lot of floor and floreio work, and a lot of preparation and other stuff that is designed for you to become a better mover no matter what discipline you're moving in. Also a big difference: Ido's stuff is designed to do things fast, much faster than Coach's stuff. I'll get to this in section 5. 
    
5. Online Coaching: First off, Ido has said that coaching online is far from ideal, but the reason he still does it is, bum bum bummm, the shit works. And, the revenue from it is what allows him and his team to continuously travel the world spreading their knowledge, which otherwise might not be possible. Online Coaching is difficult to get used to, and so is Ido's attitude (see above, sorry for the rant). I just want to say that you're going to be disappointed if you go into with with false expectations. If you expect to work very hard to get very far, that's right on the dot. In my experience Ido has given a tremendous amount of detail regarding exercises and programming, and has been very responsive to any emails you send him, asking about anything you want during the time you're training under him. He also does tailor programs individually to your goals and starting level, but because so many people have similar mobility deficits, some parts of the programs may look very similar person to person I think. He will program for whatever you want to work towards, provided it is something that he is able to teach.
    
6. Programming: Here is the main difference between Coach's and Ido's programs. Foundation etc. is designed to build you up from the bottom, slowly, and forgoes a significant amount of joint prep because the gradual 'mastery' organization takes care of that. This means that things have to go more slowly, because instead of relying on supplementary joint prep exercises you are relying on the strength exercises themselves to strengthen the joints, which is why all foundation stuff starts off so high rep/low stress, and eventually reverses that ratio. All this stuff is designed to be done in as little time a week as possible, and as such there is very little rest between strength exercises. This is a big point of departure. Ido's stuff is mostly high intensity from the get-go, but with a HUGE amount of rest compared to Foundation, and also a huge focus on increasing work capacity. High stress, high reps, high rest. For the first few weeks I failed on completing the rep/set scheme set out, but eventually I got there and my work capacity greatly improved. He also uses a lot of joint prep exercises and mobility stuff, but the reason his workouts take up so much time is the amount of rest during strength sets. If the mobility were integrated like with Foundation the total time would be cut in half. All of this is designed to improve strength, mobility, and balance very quickly while still being injury free and leaving as few holes as possible, and in order to do that, it takes 10-15 hours a week (and 9 hours of sleep a night I might add). Just the way it is. Fundamentally different from Foundation. Ido goes fast, and it works. Foundation goes slow, and it works. The price difference and time commitment are definitely deal breakers for almost everyone, but if you can I think it's worth it. You also get a lot of programming that, if you're knowledgable, you can base future workouts on, so the information is quite valuable itself.

Tl;dr: Ido's coaching is designed to increase strength etc. as fast as possible and remain injury free (which takes a lot of time per week), while Coach's coaching is designed to increase strength etc. and remain injury free while taking up as little time each week as possible (which takes much longer to see results). It's a tradeoff: more hours per week=  faster results, but that's not what everyone wants. 

Hmm. That may have been excessive . 

FredInChina said:

I think that what he is really saying is that he doesn't think that he can achieve a manna... hence, he maybe doesn't think that anyone else can...

 

Frankly speaking, I also don't think I can achieve a manna; yet that doesn't stop me from training for it.

Haha same here. Not to create a limiting belief but I doubt I will achieve one. Of course one day if I get closer to it I may re-evaluate this thought. I will say though every time I watch the gymnastic bodies manna video I get super motivated. Everything from the music to the way he slowly raises into it is just epic. Imagine doing that at your local gym in the yoga room and all the chicks are just 

Ido was my long time student from 2005 to 2011.  Johnny Sapinoso, Ido's assistant, was also my long time student from 2008 to 2012.   Given these facts, I will disagree that there is Ido's approach and my approach.  There is literally the GB approach onto which Ido has grafted some additional materials and adjusted programming.

Most people should find it illuminating to note that the two best prepared and strongest athletes in Ido's 'system' (Ido and Johnny) were both trained by me.

With all of that being said, I am proud of the progress that both Ido and Johnny have made and am also pleased that they continue to help spread the word regarding the benefits of GST.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Awwwwwwkwarrrddddd~

I would add that Ido's "methods" and "system" are not exclusive to what you would receive in his online training; I suspect he leaves a lot of elements out because they require in-person coaching (which would explain his insistence that you find a way to attend an event, and, if that's absolutely impossible, go for online coaching). Ido puts a lot of focus into floreio-type movement (ground based flow), but I would be surprised if this showed up in online coaching to any significant extent because of the limitations of the format (i.e. submitting videos, reviewing them, sending feedback, incorporating feedback, etc.) That being said, you can access all of Ido's floreio material for free on his old blog (idoportal.blogspot.com); I've been working this alongside F1 and H1 for a while, and can say that it complements the strength/mobility developed through F1/H1 nicely, as long as you have the required recovery capacity. I think a major benefit of the floreio/GST combo is a balance between linear and non-linear movement (respectively), e.g. working rotations into low bridge, QDR, etc.

Boris-

A key difference between their approaches is that Coach Sommer has provided a complete gymnastics curriculum; Ido provides training plans customized to an individual's goals.

best,

jason

FredInChina said:

I think that what he is really saying is that he doesn't think that he can achieve a manna... hence, he maybe doesn't think that anyone else can...

 

Frankly speaking, I also don't think I can achieve a manna; yet that doesn't stop me from training for it.

Yeah I got that, and when you look for pictures or videos of it, it's pretty hard to find. Is it a matter of flexibility as you get older and bigger?

It just seemed strange that  he admits it's possible, but doesn't think that many people can do it because he can't do it.

Either way, he is far more advanced than me, just putting it up for discussion

I follow Ido on facebook, as I do many people in the bodyweight world. Kinda how I found this website in the first place. I am pretty sure Ido and Coach Sommer are not rivals, maybe different branches of the same tree? Read this sometime ago and had to link it here. http://idoportal.blogspot.ca/2008/05/grand-canyon-coach-sommer-and-misc.html

That's a great blog post MAttProulx, thanks for posting the link

I'm interested in hearing more about these "power levers"

I second that

Bipocni said:

I'm interested in hearing more about these "power levers"

They are probably the same thing as the ring trainers or iron cross trainers.

B1214N said:

They are probably the same thing as the ring trainers or iron cross trainers.

From what I was told they are better than ring trainers. I got other details though. That came from his athletes.

 This says it all:

Coach Sommer said:

Ido was my long time student from 2005 to 2011.  Johnny Sapinoso, Ido's assistant, was also my long time student from 2008 to 2012.   

Something I'm not sure anyone has really mentioned yet is that Coach is a Gymnast, where as Ido is a Generalist.  All of coaches training is focused on preparing athletes to perform gymnastics based skills, where as Ido is more focused on general quality of movement and being able to do anything.  While on the surface they look pretty similar, Ido has taken a lot from capoeira and other movement based art forms.  For example he focuses a lot on locomotor drills, something I don't imagine Coach wastes his time with because it won't help his athletes become better gymnasts.

Undeniably, gymnastics gives you a good physical base to perform well at anything.  I remember a quote where someone said "If you take 10 athletes from 10 different sports and make them do each others sports, the gymnasts will perform the best overall" but what I'm saying is that Ido is trying to train the sort of people that will perform best overall, not the best at gymnastics.  So there's a lot more of a movement focus that's lacking from the gymnastic bodies curriculum (both current and forthcoming)

Although I imagine that there's a lot more crossover when coach trains his actual athletes.  It's hard to teach someone tumbling skills online.

@Chisei, really great post. 

I'm very glad Coach has posted in this thread, and that this has been wrapped up. It was sort of hanging in the air for quite a while, and while I was curious about Ido's continued relationship with the GB program, I wasn't willing to pry. Happy to see that things are not at a bitter and unpleasant state between Coach and Ido because I admire them both tremendously.

Cheers to you, Coach and Ido!

Bipocni said:

Something I'm not sure anyone has really mentioned yet is that Coach is a Gymnast, where as Ido is a Generalist ... All of coaches training is focused on preparing athletes to perform gymnastics based skills, where as Ido is more focused on general quality of movement and being able to do anything ... "If you take 10 athletes from 10 different sports and make them do each others sports, the gymnasts will perform the best overall" but what I'm saying is that Ido is trying to train the sort of people that will perform best overall, not the best at gymnastics. So there's a lot more of a movement focus that's lacking from the gymnastic bodies curriculum (both current and forthcoming)

- The GB Courses are designed to prepare the human body athletically and are not specific to technical gymnastics.

- On the one hand you say that gymnasts will perform the best overall at all different sports and then on the other hand you are trying to claim that Ido's system will prepare people who are better than gymnasts at movement as well as possessing a higher quality. However I have seen no proof supporting this assertion.

- Watch and learn, my friends. No one moves better than high level gymnasts.

Without a doubt, gymnasts express the potential of the human body for acrobatic movement at its ultimate level; explosive power, agility, balance. All else is but a pale shadow in comparison. And to try to say otherwise is simply the sheerest unsupported hyperbole.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Bipocni said:

Something I'm not sure anyone has really mentioned yet is that Coach is a Gymnast, where as Ido is a Generalist ... Ido is more focused on general quality of movement and being able to do anything.

 

 

Hi Bipocni and others-

I've read elsewhere about Ido's focus on quality of movement.

Can someone point me to a resource in which he explains his criteria for this?

For example, is he referring to the technical performance of a movement? Or to an aesthetic?

Does he give his own definition of movement?

I would be curious to learn more about what he has said regarding the practical applications of generalism: What does the generalist look like in the world, i.e. in an event, competition, race, or the demands of a subculture?

best,

jason

P.S. Incidentally, it must be said that Coach Sommer is also focused on nothing but quality of movement, rather ruthlessly so.

Bipocni said:

 

Although I imagine that there's a lot more crossover when coach trains his actual athletes.  It's hard to teach someone tumbling skills online.

No, it is hard to teach someone tumbling when they can't hold a handstand, an arch or a hollow.  You know, those foundational skills....Tumbling and powerful dynamic movement can only come after the strength to perform those skills technically correct has been developed.  The fundamentals of gymnastics are the fundamentals of movement. 

Jason Stein said:

P.S. Incidentally, it must be said that Coach Sommer is also focused on nothing but quality of movement, rather ruthlessly so.

No doubt!

The same could be said for any reputable National Team gymnastics coach.  To be able to compete in the highest levels of competition in gymnastics requires an obsessive demand for perfection in skills and attention to the smallest details.  Allowing a gymnasts to be "almost correct" will later not lead to "almost victory" but instead, certain failures.  Skills build upon one another.

That 10 sports phrase is repeated often but has that ever been tested ?

I doubt is has been tested, but use logic. Rowers cannot do backflips, iron crosses, etc, but gymnasts can obviously row with great power. Gymnasts may not be able to swim with any Olympic swimmer, but can the swimmer compete with the gymnast in the their most basic skills?