serious neck pain - skip PE1, PE2 and PE3?

RiQC said:

Do you also do foundation?

 

And for my opinion you shoud definitely skip the head stands for now. And go to see docktor. I woud not wait if it woud be my neck.

Yes, I do foundation too!

Thank you for your advice. I have anyway to wait until monday: I don't have time before..in the case it's not improved I'll go for it.

I utilised physiotherapy and massage to work my t spine mobility after I strained a muscle in a similar area to the one you described Angelo. As part of this work Chest mobility was critical ie. don't skip h1 pe1-3 IM. They must be part of the solution to desk jockey posture. Hey it made a big difference to me.

Caveat: I didn't have severe pain during head stands. I actually strained it doing pull-ups so see what the pros say. Good luck.

James Hall said:

I utilised physiotherapy and massage to work my t spine mobility after I strained a muscle in a similar area to the one you described Angelo. As part of this work Chest mobility was critical ie. don't skip h1 pe1-3 IM. They must be part of the solution to desk jockey posture. Hey it made a big difference to me.

Caveat: I didn't have severe pain during head stands. I actually strained it doing pull-ups so see what the pros say. Good luck.

Thank you very much!

James Hall said:

Question for everybody: What are your recommendations for neck strength....

Neck bridges will build a phenomenally powerful neck, but please BE CAREFUL.  If you do them wrong you will be placing your cervical spine in a very compromised position, and under heavy load.  You can really hurt yourself with them if you aren't careful.

If you're really strong, decapitators are an option.  Imagine hanging from a pullup bar, but by your chin...

I have done alot of neck bridges also to cope with my problem. But i have someone hanging in my neck everyday, so its a must for me. Works well.

James Hall said:

Question for everybody: What are your recommendations for neck strength and posture/flexibility? I haven't seen it covered on these forums or directly in foundation (especially as indirectly neck tension is required for many of the exercises). Are h1 pe1-3 sufficient neck work?

Arch Holds builds neck extension strength, the Foundation Front Lever mobility further builds neck extension strength through the progressions to a bridge.  Hollows build neck flexion strength, and Foundation Manna mobility further builds neck flexion strength the progressions to pike.

I don't mean to encourage persisting with "bad pain" and concern for injury. But, I found that during HS/PE1&2 my head and neck pain/cramping was the biggest limiting factor. After a while though, that went away, and now I have noticeably stronger neck muscles. I guess it's the line between "good pain" and "bad pain". I definitely agree with the replies recommending getting it checked, though.

wheezer said:

I don't mean to encourage persisting with "bad pain" and concern for injury. But, I found that during HS/PE1&2 my head and neck pain/cramping was the biggest limiting factor. After a while though, that went away, and now I have noticeably stronger neck muscles. I guess it's the line between "good pain" and "bad pain". I definitely agree with the replies recommending getting it checked, though.

I absolutely agree with that. I intend to train my neck, but I would like to do it in others and more progressive way; before to do again almost 4 minutes on my head time will pass. But at the same time, I can absolutely and already keep easily my body in balance in that positions; actually also in a wall handstand, and for minutes. And giving that the handstand is not properly on the head my tought was: maybe I can skip that positions and go on (doing the mobility work obvioulsy)..I'm sure that if they are there is for a reason, but stop the progression for months because I can't stay on my head for a lot of time, when I have the balance and the handstand is not on the head, would be too much. 

Angelo85 said:

I feel the pain on the right of the spine, but really close to the spine (sometimes it seems a little bit on the spine too). 

 

Anyway, I know this was discussed other times, but I've never found a concrete answer and now that you say that I want to repeat the question: if it can compromise the spine, why in the videos the positions are showed on the front of the head? 

Anecdotal experience: I just tried my headstands with a cold, and I can say that personally, for me, the front of the head position keeps the tracheal pathways open, whereas they seem to compress somewhat with the top of the head headstand.  I'm not sure it matters much when you're healthy (I never noticed before) but it makes a difference when you're already struggling to breath.

James Hall said:

Angelo, how's your Thoracic spine/upper back mobility. How's your posture when sitting or standing?

Question for everybody: What are your recommendations for neck strength and posture/flexibility? I haven't seen it covered on these forums or directly in foundation (especially as indirectly neck tension is required for many of the exercises). Are h1 pe1-3 sufficient neck work?

I have to a certain degree some cervical calcification (i don't know the causes perhaps my posture? but i've suffered multiple whiplashes/KO's/concussions to the head in various chapters of my life so...yeah...explains my IQ ) 

so, i'd impliment neck rotations into your warm up and every time you get up from a headstand-ish position. I noticed how my neck felt going from Tripod to Headstand, thats why even though i've mastered the 5x60secs with minimal shaking or "feels" in my neck, doing 5x12 gives me quite a workout in that area, especially from holding a line. 

yes, your neck is a very delicate and important place but it can sustain these loads. you just have to listen to your body and not get to the point where failure is coming from you having a "loose" neck or losing tension in the neck from balancing. 

as for the posture flexibility, just keep doing what you're doing. (assuming you're doing both H1 and F1?) i'd pay attention if you're craning your neck during the iM's or PE's. especially Shoulder Flexions and Should Extensions(H1-wise). keeping my head in a neutral spot finally gave me the ability to find the last "pool of immobility" in my upperback/lower neck and get a nice crack out of it, not that that means anything, only that im using the higher fibers of the trapz(finally!) 

I'd look at H1 PE1-3 more as a (straight neck strength) because the only active flexing you are doing is the corrections you do with balance. for more neck strength related stuff, you'd have to look at doing neck flexions, extensions, hyper extensions and lateral flexion, that other people can cover because i do not know how to even begin that venture.

You mentiond you felt it mostly on one side. I've strained my trapezius multiple times when my get my c-spine extended under a load, and it sounds like a possibility. It usually hurts only on one side of the neck, and you'll notice more pain when turning your head to one side than the other. It should also hurt to extend the neck back, but feel like a nice stretch to gently curl your chin toward your chest. You would also be able to find a significant trigger point if you lay down on a tennis ball or lacrosse ball in your trapezius. Try it out if this sounds like what you're feeling. I hope it is, because as painfully annoying as a trap strain might be, it goes away in a few weeks and a spinal injury would be far worse.

I notice in the video the athlete's chin is up and I can see how someone might push into the forehead too much, loading the c-spine in hyperextension. I made a mental note to myself to keep a more neutral neck position in those first PEs even before I saw this post.

Hey Angelo,

  I had similar issues when I started with H1, not sure if it can help, but here's my experience.

When I began, after a couple of weeks, I had quite a piercing pain on the right-side trapezium, close to the spine, so I stopped everything and spent a couple of days analysing my shape and posture in order to find if something was of.

My first impression was that I was arching my neck too much (this was with HS-PE2) and even if the athlete in video does it with forehead on the ground, I transitioned to a "straighter" upper-head on ground.

That didn't help much, I still felt some pain in there even if I checked myself and the neck was straight.
So my mistake was to think that because neck is in pain, the problem comes from the neck. I realised instead that my LEGS were off! I was piked at hips level, so that the legs weren't in line with the body, but rather more forward (i.e. towards the arms/belly side). This put my balance off and because I was standing on my neck (and hands) such force was pivoting there.

After spending a couple of days on this and forcing myself to be totally straight, I've never experienced pain anymore.

It also made the exercise WAY easier, at the point where probably, with a newly acquired correct form, now I could pass mastery even if I'm in week 8.

I realized that I was doing it just wrong and my body was desperately trying to keep the tension of a wrong stance, making the whole drill much more tiring than it probably should be.

Again, not sure if this is your case, but maybe information from someone else doesn't do harm.

Hope you're getting better soon!

fitwell said:

You mentiond you felt it mostly on one side. I've strained my trapezius multiple times when my get my c-spine extended under a load, and it sounds like a possibility. It usually hurts only on one side of the neck, and you'll notice more pain when turning your head to one side than the other. It should also hurt to extend the neck back, but feel like a nice stretch to gently curl your chin toward your chest. You would also be able to find a significant trigger point if you lay down on a tennis ball or lacrosse ball in your trapezius. Try it out if this sounds like what you're feeling. I hope it is, because as painfully annoying as a trap strain might be, it goes away in a few weeks and a spinal injury would be far worse.

 

I notice in the video the athlete's chin is up and I can see how someone might push into the forehead too much, loading the c-spine in hyperextension. I made a mental note to myself to keep a more neutral neck position in those first PEs even before I saw this post.

Wow! The situation you described seems to be really similar to mine. Actually I'm feeling a little bit better since few days: I've completely stopped every exercise that involve too much the trapezius, and the situation apparently is improving. Thank you for sharing your experience!

maolu said:

Hey Angelo,

 

  I had similar issues when I started with H1, not sure if it can help, but here's my experience.

 

When I began, after a couple of weeks, I had quite a piercing pain on the right-side trapezium, close to the spine, so I stopped everything and spent a couple of days analysing my shape and posture in order to find if something was of.

My first impression was that I was arching my neck too much (this was with HS-PE2) and even if the athlete in video does it with forehead on the ground, I transitioned to a "straighter" upper-head on ground.

 

That didn't help much, I still felt some pain in there even if I checked myself and the neck was straight.

So my mistake was to think that because neck is in pain, the problem comes from the neck. I realised instead that my LEGS were off! I was piked at hips level, so that the legs weren't in line with the body, but rather more forward (i.e. towards the arms/belly side). This put my balance off and because I was standing on my neck (and hands) such force was pivoting there.

 

After spending a couple of days on this and forcing myself to be totally straight, I've never experienced pain anymore.

It also made the exercise WAY easier, at the point where probably, with a newly acquired correct form, now I could pass mastery even if I'm in week 8.

I realized that I was doing it just wrong and my body was desperately trying to keep the tension of a wrong stance, making the whole drill much more tiring than it probably should be.

 

Again, not sure if this is your case, but maybe information from someone else doesn't do harm.

Hope you're getting better soon!

Many thanks. 

I don't know, maybe I did too what you described: it's a possibility. If in the future I have the bravery to try againg the tripod or the headstand position, I'll try to pay attention to what you said.

fitwell said:

You mentiond you felt it mostly on one side. I've strained my trapezius multiple times when my get my c-spine extended under a load, and it sounds like a possibility. It usually hurts only on one side of the neck, and you'll notice more pain when turning your head to one side than the other. It should also hurt to extend the neck back, but feel like a nice stretch to gently curl your chin toward your chest. You would also be able to find a significant trigger point if you lay down on a tennis ball or lacrosse ball in your trapezius. Try it out if this sounds like what you're feeling. I hope it is, because as painfully annoying as a trap strain might be, it goes away in a few weeks and a spinal injury would be far worse.

 

I notice in the video the athlete's chin is up and I can see how someone might push into the forehead too much, loading the c-spine in hyperextension. I made a mental note to myself to keep a more neutral neck position in those first PEs even before I saw this post.

I have exactly this! Have had it about 5 times in the past 2 years. Usually comes whan i try takedown in MMA and the ofher guy sprawls hard.

Si you say its nothing serious then?

Trapezium is a bone in the wrist. Trapezius is the upper back muscle 😊

RiQC said:

I have exactly this! Have had it about 5 times in the past 2 years. Usually comes whan i try takedown in MMA and the ofher guy sprawls hard.

Si you say its nothing serious then?

Well it sucks and it'll put you out of action for a bit, so I would avoid it even though it's not life-altering. I train BJJ which is a constant cause of that pain, again because of my neck getting into the combination of cervical flexion/atlas extension. The moral is to try to keep your chin tucked, though if someone is sprawling on you, you may not have a choice.

I've been addressing it with self-myofascial release via lacrosse or tennis ball, but it's important to address the underlying cause as well, which I believe is improving scapular mobility and thoracic extension. My T-spine is a bit too round, and as I've opened it up, the trap/neck pain goes away. I really like Coach's wall extensions, and a movement I've seen Ido Portal do where he hags from a pullup bar and with straight arms pulls as though he's trying to pull into a front lever, but lets the body hang instead of staying in a line, so the T-spine and above leans back but the rest dangles.

Bird dogs also help, remembering to stay very braced and extend against the brace.

And this sequence also works wonders. You probably already do the dislocates and the serratus anterior pushups as part of Foundation. I like to run through the whole sequence as a warm-up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4Wo095zPnc

Thanks! The video dident work in my country.

I think this really helps to understand what i need to do.

my neck pain specifically disappeared after I started seriously understanding what I was doing during Seated shoulder flexions AND not craning my neck forward. 

seriously, not a cramp since then (since around may/june)

I've gotten some lab tests done and one test specifically by a Magnetic Resonance machine, my cervical calcification has gone down but not by much. if i find something specifically make any progress, i'll make sure to post it here for everyone's use and abuse.