serious neck pain - skip PE1, PE2 and PE3?

Hello to everyone.

Before to start the program I was already able to stay easily more than one minute in a wall handstand, with all my body in tension. Also I was able to mantain the headstand for some time (but I had never tried to stay until failure).

Although all this, I started anyway from the very beginning. Also I went on slower in respect of the suggested progression: mainly because of the lack of mobility in the shoulders and for safety reason.

After few months I arrived at 4x48s in PE1: really, really easy in term of strenght and balance, but terrible for my neck. In result of this, two weeks ago I had to stop the handstand training: my neck was really painful; and still it is now.

I want to precise that I have ridden every post about neck pain and head position during Handstand Prep. 1 - 2 - 3. I did nothing wrong, and my head position was more or less the same that you can see in the videos in the course.

Now: I think the pain is going to pass, but I really don't intend to stay again in the future for so much time on my head. Really: I don't.

What could be the problem if I skip PE1, PE2 and PE3, and If I go anyway through the progression? Obviously I would do the mobility work anyway...

Wow, that sounds severe. You say that it hadn't bothered you until you moved onto the higher volume? Would it be possible for you to take a video of a shorter duration, in case the cause is something someone here can easily identify?

Jon Douglas said:

Wow, that sounds severe. You say that it hadn't bothered you until you moved onto the higher volume? Would it be possible for you to take a video of a shorter duration, in case the cause is something someone here can easily identify?

It did bothered before, but not severely. After the 4x48, which was succesfull and easy a part for the neck pain, I was unable to go on with my training. And still I am now; so, for the moment, it's impossible for me even to imagine to try again that movement for making the video...and, I would really prefer to skip for the future every long head hold. I was just wondering in which way this could affect the progression. 

With "this" I meant skipping the head holds

Damn, sounds nasty. I hope whatever it is clears up soon.

From what you've written it seems like you dont have a choice except to skIp it for now, maybe come back to it when your traps are stronger and you have spent more time upside down (ine that is the cause). I can't see it really hholding you back, i mean they are important but basic drills.

Hopefully someone with neck pain/iinjury experience van chime in and help with the problem, but definitely avoid painful positions for the moment.

Jon Douglas said:

Damn, sounds nasty. I hope whatever it is clears up soon.

From what you've written it seems like you dont have a choice except to skIp it for now, maybe come back to it when your traps are stronger and you have spent more time upside down (ine that is the cause). I can't see it really hholding you back, i mean they are important but basic drills.

Hopefully someone with neck pain/iinjury experience van chime in and help with the problem, but definitely avoid painful positions for the moment.

Many thanks. I'll definitely avoid painful positions, and as soon as I can I'll restart the training but from PE4...

Get a doctor/sports physician to check out your neck. That sounds like it could be a serious issue. 

Joshua Slocum said:

Get a doctor/sports physician to check out your neck. That sounds like it could be a serious issue. 

In fact my idea was to wait one more week to see if my neek gets better. If not I'll go to see a doctor...

what is your actual form of head position? do you use the upper part to support the weight or the front part?

alex87 said:

what is your actual form of head position? do you use the upper part to support the weight or the front part?

I tried both. At the beginning I felt more confortable with the upper part, but after few weeks I begun to use the front part (like in the videos) beacause it seemed less stressing for my neck. In my last training I used the front part, like in the videos...

The stress depends on personal feeling but from my experience i can stay i no hands headstand position near the wall fro 3-4 minutes without feel stress in my neck only using the upper part to support my self. btw are you doing serious warm up before the PE?

I use the upper part. I have old mma neck injury. I woud die if i try the front part not literally

RiQC said:

I use the upper part. I have old mma neck injury. I woud die if i try the front part not literally

This was my first impression too. But adding time to the holds it became easier on the front part. And I was happy with that because after all The Coach gave that idea in the videos...

Using the front of your head for headstands can place your cervical spine in a compromised position.

Where specifically in your neck do you feel the pain?

Bipocni said:

Using the front of your head for headstands can place your cervical spine in a compromised position.

 

Where specifically in your neck do you feel the pain?

I feel the pain on the right of the spine, but really close to the spine (sometimes it seems a little bit on the spine too). 

Anyway, I know this was discussed other times, but I've never found a concrete answer and now that you say that I want to repeat the question: if it can compromise the spine, why in the videos the positions are showed on the front of the head? 

Angelo85 said:

I feel the pain on the right of the spine, but really close to the spine (sometimes it seems a little bit on the spine too). 

 

Anyway, I know this was discussed other times, but I've never found a concrete answer and now that you say that I want to repeat the question: if it can compromise the spine, why in the videos the positions are showed on the front of the head? 

I can do front or top for minutes, saying it CAN put the spine in a compromising position doesn't mean it WILL, if that helps.

Jon Douglas said:

I can do front or top for minutes, saying it CAN put the spine in a compromising position doesn't mean it WILL, if that helps.

Yes, I agree with your elucidation; I understand the difference you remark. But don't you think that if there is that possibility - also a small one - would have been reasonable to specify that? Simply writing that below the positions or showing the alternative...

A part from that, I remember to have ridden a post, in which the same question was discussed, and someone at the end wrote "until the coach doesn't officialy rectify the indication [the positions on the front of the head] for me the correct position it remains the one showed [on the front, not on the upper of the head]"...or something like that. An official clarification, at this point, would be welcomed, I think. And if it has already be given, please get me the link.

Anyway my intention was different with my post: simply understand what I could lost if I skip the PE1-3...

I think they are important for teaching balancing in an inverted position. That is why they are there.  However, one must weigh the pluses and minuses in any case and in yours clearly you should avoid those positions for now.  It may make it more difficult for you later when you go to start free handstand work.  If so, maybe by then your neck will be better and you may be able to use the headstands as a transition. Maybe you won't even miss them.  As you noted, however, for sure do the mobility portions regardless.  And i wouldn't begin handstand training again until your neck is better as you could have a fall while doing them and make your neck quite a bit worse.  Good luck! 

MT Nordic said:

I think they are important for teaching balancing in an inverted position. That is why they are there.  However, one must weigh the pluses and minuses in any case and in yours clearly you should avoid those positions for now.  It may make it more difficult for you later when you go to start free handstand work.  If so, maybe by then your neck will be better and you may be able to use the headstands as a transition. Maybe you won't even miss them.  As you noted, however, for sure do the mobility portions regardless.  And i wouldn't begin handstand training again until your neck is better as you could have a fall while doing them and make your neck quite a bit worse.  Good luck! 

Thank you very much!

Angelo, how's your Thoracic spine/upper back mobility. How's your posture when sitting or standing?

Question for everybody: What are your recommendations for neck strength and posture/flexibility? I haven't seen it covered on these forums or directly in foundation (especially as indirectly neck tension is required for many of the exercises). Are h1 pe1-3 sufficient neck work?

James Hall said:

 (...)  Are h1 pe1-3 sufficient neck work?

Generally speaking, yes, however, an examination by a medical professional will clear you up for it, and maybe identify specific weaknesses that will need addressing first.

You could check out Kit Laughlin's materials, and specifically his "Overcoming Neck & Back Pain" course.

Angelo85 said:

This was my first impression too. But adding time to the holds it became easier on the front part. And I was happy with that because after all The Coach gave that idea in the videos...

Coach gave his opinion when H1 was released and this first came up. He said to do the head stands the way that it is comfortable for you. That when you follow the program consistently they will be long gone soon anyways or something similar.

RiQC said:

Coach gave his opinion when H1 was released and this first came up. He said to do the head stands the way that it is comfortable for you. That when you follow the program consistently they will be long gone soon anyways or something similar.

I had missed that. Thank you.

My problem is that I feel unconfortable with both - just a little better with the front. For this, I don't want to go on with this long holds positions on my head. Maybe my neck strenght has to be develloped, but I'll do it in another ways; and I was trying to understand if I can progress as well in the H1 series or not (It seems to me that eventually the answer is yes).

James Hall said:

Angelo, how's your Thoracic spine/upper back mobility. How's your posture when sitting or standing?

Question for everybody: What are your recommendations for neck strength and posture/flexibility? I haven't seen it covered on these forums or directly in foundation (especially as indirectly neck tension is required for many of the exercises). Are h1 pe1-3 sufficient neck work?

My upper back mobility is really bad: in fact I have quite a strong and flexible lower back, but because of the upper back (and shoulders) mobility the side lever progression is the unique exercise in which I am not able to improve after months of training.

I sit all day long: I try to keep a good posture..but, you know, sometimes I find myself all arched...

Angelo85 said:

My upper back mobility is really bad: in fact I have quite a strong and flexible lower back, but because of the upper back (and shoulders) mobility the side lever progression is the unique exercise in which I am not able to improve after months of training.

 

I sit all day long: I try to keep a good posture..but, you know, sometimes I find myself all arched...

Do you also do foundation?

And for my opinion you shoud definitely skip the head stands for now. And go to see docktor. I woud not wait if it woud be my neck.