Beginning the Planche, Dragondoor Article Question

Hey everybody! I'm Doctor Octopus.

Anyhow, I have a few questions.

 

I have my own barbell routine that is basically "Power to the People", with deadlifting and military pressing 4 or 5 days per week. I also am doing heavy T-handle swings, rows, chinups, dips, weighted dip negatives, and some olympic lifting (I have an olympic platform only, so in order to military press, I must first clean the weight).

 

What I hope to do with gymnastics is start slow and just add the isometrics to my weightlifting routine, just like this article on Dragon Door. I also remember reading in BtGB that lots of guys made their own routine and did gymnastics and lifting weights at the same time. This mixed approach appeals to me since I already have a weight set.

 

http://www.dragondoor.com/articles/building-an-olympic-body-through-bodyweight-conditioning/

 

I can do a tuck front lever for 10 seconds and a tuck back lever for about 12 seconds, now my question is related to the planche. With only an olympic platform and no bench press, my horizontal pressing strength is miserable.

What I have been doing is just grabbing the parallel bars of my dip station, tucking my legs into my chest, and trying to lean forward, but my knees are still far ahead of my elbows and I can only hold the position for four or five seconds at the most. Will this rectify over time? How can I assist the planche progression?

 

However at 205# I am still at about 20% body fat. If I can cut down to 175# do you guys think I would be able to tuck planche?

 

I'm not terribly worried (at the moment) about shoulder health. I warm up for military press with cuban presses and I can do a dislocation that's a little more than shoulder width apart.

 

Thanks considerably!

DocOc

Hello Doctor Octopus! My name's Jon o.O It's neither academic, medical or cephalapodic, but it works.

 

First off, here's the facts. The article is old and has since been refined by trialling thousands of adult gymnastics strength students. This has resulted in progressions and supporting mobility drills which make up part of the Foundation course (obviously, the straddle planche portion). So there's only so much material which is readily available without getting in depth with one of these courses. Goes without saying that's the best thing you can do if you want a great straddle planche and above, but if you're determined you can do it with what you have

 

Weight factors can make it easier, but shouldn't prohibit you from a tuck planche. To focus on the article itself, since you like the abbreviated static approach in it, I would recommend you go back to the straight arm frog stand. I believe too many people skip over this and treat is as no more difficult than the bent-arm frogstand.

Revisit it. When you can balance easily for 30-60 seconds, focus on protraction and the lean-- lean forward until you can feel your traps working hard and pressing your shoulders into the ground. Protract until you get cramps between your shoulders and chest. Get the weight on your hands and very little weight on your knees. Learn to lift from that lock in the shoulders. Then revisit tuck planche.

 

Straight arm strength means disadvantaged leverage, by kind of a lot. There's no way to rush these things other than to give it the time it needs to adapt and for you to learn how to use your muscles in a specific way.

 

Regarding the front lever stuff, same deal. Foundation covers it in depth and detail. If you want to do it with just the steps outlined there, you will need to work on the two factors-- not just conditioning the muscles but learning to use and activate them correctly to hold a good and stable position. There's a lot of this on the forum-- search function is your friend.

 

That aside, weighted pullups and dips will help to an extent, but this varies a lot-- some people have built a front lever from weighted pullups alone, while I personally was doing 50%+ bodyweight pulls for reps and had trouble getting a straddle FL until I picked up a lot more of the Gymnastic Strength Training™.

 

Happy to go into more detail if you have more specific questions

I'd actually regress it even further.  Learn to do a decent planche lean, with the front of your hands in line with your hips.  After you get a 60 second hold, move your feet up to shoulder height, and then onto a wall.  Also do pushups in this position.

 

Another regression of the front lever than was left out of BtGB is the tucked L hang.  Basically just hang from a bar with your legs out in front of you, just like an L sit.

 

Be careful with the back lever, a lot of people have hurt their elbows training it.  Keep plugging away at your german hangs, they make an excellent mobility drill.

 

If you don't already, get some rings.  They are as useful as a barbell when it comes to strength training.

Bipocni said:

I'd actually regress it even further.  Learn to do a decent planche lean, with the front of your hands in line with your hips.  After you get a 60 second hold, move your feet up to shoulder height, and then onto a wall.  Also do pushups in this position.

 

A planche lean with the front of your hands in line with the hips is pretty much the maximum lean for a planche lean for most people and that would be significantly harder than a tuck planche let alone a straight arm frogstand. I would instead recommend getting up to mastery level of a planche lean demonstrated in F1 which is far from the full lean, but still has a decent amount of lean.

B1214N said:

A planche lean with the front of your hands in line with the hips is pretty much the maximum lean for a planche lean for most people and that would be significantly harder than a tuck planche let alone a straight arm frogstand. I would instead recommend getting up to mastery level of a planche lean demonstrated in F1 which is far from the full lean, but still has a decent amount of lean.

1. Did not know that.

2. Explains why my planche leans haven't been going anywhere.

 

It might be "harder" in terms of disadvantaged leverage or whatever, but in my experience planche leans are a lot softer on your joints than even straight arm frogstand.  I'm assuming because there is less total weight being lifted, or it's more evenly distributed or maybe just that you can only lean as far forward as you can control.

Bipocni said:

It might be "harder" in terms of disadvantaged leverage or whatever, but in my experience planche leans are a lot softer on your joints than even straight arm frogstand.  I'm assuming because there is less total weight being lifted, or it's more evenly distributed or maybe just that you can only lean as far forward as you can control.

That will depend on the degree of lean. The more you lean, the more torque there is and more weight on your hands.

B1214N said:

That will depend on the degree of lean. The more you lean, the more torque there is and more weight on your hands.

LOL... that is really your preferred battle horse H1N1, eh?

Thanks for all the information guys!
I've been reading it and giving it some thought at work this week.

I'll think to reply to each of you in turn tomorrow morning. Have to sleep on it.

Thanks considerably, DocOc. 

These are some pretty big replies so I'll sort of write in the quotes in italics and underline to make it easier to ask questions -

 

Jon Douglas said:

Hello Doctor Octopus! My name's Jon o.O It's neither academic, medical or cephalapodic, but it works.

 

First off, here's the facts. The article is old and has since been refined by trialling thousands of adult gymnastics strength students. This has resulted in progressions and supporting mobility drills which make up part of the Foundation course (obviously, the straddle planche portion). So there's only so much material which is readily available without getting in depth with one of these courses. Goes without saying that's the best thing you can do if you want a great straddle planche and above, but if you're determined you can do it with what you have

 

I'm pretty well drawn in by the idea of the article to be honest, considering it makes big promises on just a little dedication for several months. As for mobility drills I can see the concern but cuban presses and shoulder dislocations have been pretty good to me overall.

 

Weight factors can make it easier, but shouldn't prohibit you from a tuck planche. To focus on the article itself, since you like the abbreviated static approach in it, I would recommend you go back to the straight arm frog stand. I believe too many people skip over this and treat is as no more difficult than the bent-arm frogstand.

Revisit it. When you can balance easily for 30-60 seconds, focus on protraction and the lean-- lean forward until you can feel your traps working hard and pressing your shoulders into the ground. Protract until you get cramps between your shoulders and chest. Get the weight on your hands and very little weight on your knees. Learn to lift from that lock in the shoulders. Then revisit tuck planche.

 

I can now do a tuck lever (front and back) for about twelve seconds without much exterion and a frog stand for twenty seconds. I'll try to milk the straight-arm frog stand until it's very easy. Just curious, for the planche series, should my shoulder girdle look like a horseshoe from above? Not sure how else to explain it. 
Have lost some weight since posting, down to 195# - doing low-carb so I think no muscle was lost.

 

Straight arm strength means disadvantaged leverage, by kind of a lot. There's no way to rush these things other than to give it the time it needs to adapt and for you to learn how to use your muscles in a specific way.

 

Regarding the front lever stuff, same deal. Foundation covers it in depth and detail. If you want to do it with just the steps outlined there, you will need to work on the two factors-- not just conditioning the muscles but learning to use and activate them correctly to hold a good and stable position. There's a lot of this on the forum-- search function is your friend.

 

Have been doing some lurking and reading of intro threads. WIll revisit this.

 

That aside, weighted pullups and dips will help to an extent, but this varies a lot-- some people have built a front lever from weighted pullups alone, while I personally was doing 50%+ bodyweight pulls for reps and had trouble getting a straddle FL until I picked up a lot more of the Gymnastic Strength Training™.

 

Very interesting. I'll add weighted chins to my routine. Currently I just do bodyweight chins once or twice a week.

 

Happy to go into more detail if you have more specific questions

 

One thing I am curious about, my work has been in manual labor for the last five months or so and I'm going to be stuck in this job for at least another six months - so avoiding injuries is top priority. Considering that it's easy to injure the elbows on back and front levers, should I work the isometric all the way up to 30 or even 60 straight seconds? (until it's very easy?) Or make the sets short intentionally? Would that help?

 

Also, how will I know that my ligaments are ready for the next step? I've already put some hypertrophy on my arms but IIRC ligaments take longer than muscles to respond and grow to stress. Trying to avoid blowing out a bicep if at all possible.

 

 

Bipocni said:

I'd actually regress it even further.  Learn to do a decent planche lean, with the front of your hands in line with your hips.  After you get a 60 second hold, move your feet up to shoulder height, and then onto a wall.  Also do pushups in this position.

 

Sounds good - planche lean seems more approachable than the advanced frog stand - still haven't gotten used to the feeling of nosediving into the ground.

 

Another regression of the front lever than was left out of BtGB is the tucked L hang.  Basically just hang from a bar with your legs out in front of you, just like an L sit.

 

Activate the lats, no?

 

Be careful with the back lever, a lot of people have hurt their elbows training it.  Keep plugging away at your german hangs, they make an excellent mobility drill.

 

Will do, for the last few weeks I've been using them between rest intervals of military press, deadlift, or heavy t-handle swings.

 

If you don't already, get some rings.  They are as useful as a barbell when it comes to strength training.

 

I do own some pretty ghetto rings made of PVC. One of my friends is into crossfit and showed me how to make them.

 

B1214N said:

A planche lean with the front of your hands in line with the hips is pretty much the maximum lean for a planche lean for most people and that would be significantly harder than a tuck planche let alone a straight arm frogstand. I would instead recommend getting up to mastery level of a planche lean demonstrated in F1 which is far from the full lean, but still has a decent amount of lean.

 

I might try a less severe planche lean and slowly move my hands back over the course of (months?) several workouts at the least.

Bipocni said:

1. Did not know that.

2. Explains why my planche leans haven't been going anywhere.

 

It might be "harder" in terms of disadvantaged leverage or whatever, but in my experience planche leans are a lot softer on your joints than even straight arm frogstand.  I'm assuming because there is less total weight being lifted, or it's more evenly distributed or maybe just that you can only lean as far forward as you can control.

 

 

B1214N said:

That will depend on the degree of lean. The more you lean, the more torque there is and more weight on your hands.

 

Yep, going to try less lean. I'm probably going to do both the basic frog stand and a (fairly weak) straight arm planche lean. My guess is that the frog stand conditions the forearms somewhat - while I thought that handstands would be sufficient it's a somewhat different hold. Thanks for the replies, guys, appreciate it!