L pull up shoulder stability

You are arching in the middle of every L-sit pull up. Watch yourself on the way down, it is clear as day to me. Watch your lower chest and you will see it too. This is often caused by both not using the lower lats (the part that connects to the pelvis) and by not having good scapular control. Think traps and serratus anterior. Your glenohumeral muscles (deltoids, rotator cuff, etc) are having to try and pick up the slack, but they can't control the shoulder blade so they can't keep your humeral head from gliding around in the socket (because it is the socket that is moving around, it is part of the shoulder blade).

 

If you concentrate on keeping hollow, even if it's with bent legs at first, I think you will find that your problems go away. You will also get stronger. This is very important.

 

Your regular pull ups are also quite arched, which is probably where the movement fault originated. You can't just change from arched to hollow without practice

 

It is much harder to see what's going on in the L chins, but the externally rotated position moves the largest part of the humeral tubercles (the bony lumps where rotator cuff muscles attach, between which the long head biceps tendon runs) out of the way and this may be why you are not feeling any issues with them. I think the previous bit about staying hollow probably appies to them as well.

i would start with low L-chins as yours didn't look solild.

More hollow eh?  Thanks Joshua.  So if my pull ups are too arched it seems I should work on those in a hollow position before trying to do the L Chins.  Or maybe go as far back as the Pull up negatives focusing on a strong hollow?  Any thoughts on how far to regress this?  It sucks but I really want the program to go smooth/injury free.

Ok just watched Joshua's youtube on hollow body pull ups and will give them a try tomorrow.  One thing I notice in my pull ups aside from the arch is that my shoulders are protracted...I had always read they should be retracted at the top of the pull up and now can see the difference thanks to the video.

Sounds like you're well on the way to recovery Don't stress about having to step back slightly, it's like stepping out of a thornbush you've blundered into so that you can walk down the empty path next to it. Retrain the movement and you'll very quickly surpass where you are-- and it won't hurt

Sounds like Josh zeroed in on what was going on. Seems like a rather important detail. How the **** are we supposed to see this stuff?!? It isn't listed in the details and the video isn't really helpful. The athlete in the example vids for Pull-Ups and L Pull-Ups doesn't seem to have a hollow and seems to struggle a bit at the very bottom of both movements. Is it related?

 

- Chris

I am going to try not to confuse anyone here, so please pay attention to this.

 

Being hollow has nothing to do with protraction or retraction. You can retract while hollow, or protract, just as you can do both when you are arched.

 

If, by chance, you are unable to do this it is simply because you have not learned that skill. It is a skill, pure and simple, just like writing in cursive. It might not go smoothly at first, but with a little practice you will soon look back and wonder what all the fuss was about.

 

I don't think anyone should be focusing super hard on protraction or retraction during the transition, just keep pulling the ceiling down with good technique (no rolling the shoulders around or letting the elbows drift out). The scapular movement will very likely sort itself out.

 

Thinking about too many things at one time is generally a bad idea, because you won't get anything accomplished... you get lost in the details. Focus on just one thing at a time, and master that aspect. Then add the next, and so on. Before you know it, you will be doing everything right, and it will be on purpose, and it won't take a ton of conscious thought.

 

The order I would go in for regular grip pull (or chin) ups is:

 

1) Pull the ceiling (or sky) down.

2) Learn to stay slightly hollow.

3) Don't roll the shoulders forward.

4) Keep the elbows tight.

 

In the wide grip progressions, you should pretty much forget about 4, because your elbows will always be inside the hands. Don't let that be an excuse to be lazy with the regular grip!

chobbs said:

Sounds like Josh zeroed in on what was going on. Seems like a rather important detail. How the **** are we supposed to see this stuff?!? It isn't listed in the details and the video isn't really helpful. The athlete in the example vids for Pull-Ups and L Pull-Ups doesn't seem to have a hollow and seems to struggle a bit at the very bottom of both movements. Is it related?

 

- Chris

In this case, the hollow is simply not allowing an arched back to form. Think ideal gymnastic handstand body shape. You do not arch the middle or lower back, you endeavor to keep them flat.

chobbs said:

Sounds like Josh zeroed in on what was going on. Seems like a rather important detail. How the **** are we supposed to see this stuff?!? It isn't listed in the details and the video isn't really helpful. The athlete in the example vids for Pull-Ups and L Pull-Ups doesn't seem to have a hollow and seems to struggle a bit at the very bottom of both movements. Is it related?

 

- Chris

When a problem has been identified, help has been asked for and received. Support and questions are a major purpose of the forum, right? I haven't seen this question asked before, which leads me to think it's not a hugely common problem. What's the issue with not every possible difficulty being put in the document?

chobbs said:

Sounds like Josh zeroed in on what was going on. Seems like a rather important detail. How the **** are we supposed to see this stuff?!? It isn't listed in the details and the video isn't really helpful. The athlete in the example vids for Pull-Ups and L Pull-Ups doesn't seem to have a hollow and seems to struggle a bit at the very bottom of both movements. Is it related?

 

- Chris

Like i said in another thread:

- gst is not only training. it's thinking about the movements and testing different things.

- foundation should be seen combined with this forum

- use brain

- use forum (ask and READ)

Charm said:

When a problem has been identified, help has been asked for and received. Support and questions are a major purpose of the forum, right? I haven't seen this question asked before, which leads me to think it's not a hugely common problem. What's the issue with not every possible difficulty being put in the document?

 

I suppose I could sum it up as, how does one really know if they should be progressing. In a case like this what it is the indication that you are doing it improperly - not until two elements later? Is this something we need to be on the lookout for or do we only need worry when we start having sensations that indicate an injury could be on the horizon? Coach made a point in another thread regarding hand position and just mimicing what is on the video, but in this case there is nothing about those two vids that would indicate the movement should be performed in a hollow position.

 

 

- Chris 

chobbs said:

I suppose I could sum it up as, how does one really know if they should be progressing. In a case like this what it is the indication that you are doing it improperly - not until two elements later? Is this something we need to be on the lookout for or do we only need worry when we start having sensations that indicate an injury could be on the horizon? Coach made a point in another thread regarding hand position and just mimicing what is on the video, but in this case there is nothing about those two vids that would indicate the movement should be performed in a hollow position.

 

 

- Chris 

i understand your point. one thing you can do about it is read the forum. you often see some new concepts you didn't know about.

the other thing is think about alternating the exercices and experiment with them a bit. e.g. pullups with arch or hollow body.

and last but not least compare yourself to the athlete in the video. in doubt post that video. as you see you got a lot of tipps by doing that.

chobbs said:

I suppose I could sum it up as, how does one really know if they should be progressing. In a case like this what it is the indication that you are doing it improperly - not until two elements later? Is this something we need to be on the lookout for or do we only need worry when we start having sensations that indicate an injury could be on the horizon? Coach made a point in another thread regarding hand position and just mimicing what is on the video, but in this case there is nothing about those two vids that would indicate the movement should be performed in a hollow position.

- Chris

I look at it as a narrowing of scope.

-video and pictures show the gross movement

-written cues give more detail

-to go more specific still we have forum

You can circumvent the whole scope thing by having access to a coach or paying for online coaching.

Im starting to see the thing about some people thriving with external study, at university etc vs people needing to be on campus, developing on the forum. Neither is better or worse, just different learning styles. Im a bit of a loner and am happy with bbeing given course material and being told to work through it. A lot of people seem to prefer the classroom experience, learning directly from teacher and from other students' experiences alongside them. Unfortunately its plain hard to recreate this without a gymnastics class and coach.

Charm said:

I look at it as a narrowing of scope.

-video and pictures show the gross movement

-written cues give more detail

-to go more specific still we have forum

You can circumvent the whole scope thing by having access to a coach or paying for online coaching.

Im starting to see the thing about some people thriving with external study, at university etc vs people needing to be on campus, developing on the forum. Neither is better or worse, just different learning styles. Im a bit of a loner and am happy with bbeing given course material and being told to work through it. A lot of people seem to prefer the classroom experience, learning directly from teacher and from other students' experiences alongside them. Unfortunately its plain hard to recreate this without a gymnastics class and coach.

 

Interesting way to look at it Charm. I prefer the loner approach, but am much less the experimental type of loner. My perfectionism/personality doesn't lend itself to working with minimal data and just figuring it out. In that regard I find many aspects of the material frustrating.

 

- Chris

chobbs said:

Interesting way to look at it Charm. I prefer the loner approach, but am much less the experimental type of loner. My perfectionism/personality doesn't lend itself to working with minimal data and just figuring it out. In that regard I find many aspects of the material frustrating.

 

- Chris

you will learn alot more by trying to find out the right way (in combination with the forum) in the long run.

Gillham said:

Hii all. I have made it to RC PE10 L pull up and the bottom position is very hard. If I lower myself so that I have straight arms (like the video) and then pull up my right shoulder feels very shaky. i'm just on 3x2 and Last week I pushed through it and felt my should pop out a bit and that was it for me. I am going back to 5x1 this week. The first one isn;t so bad because I can use a little momentum from swinging my legs into the L sit to get out of the bottom but the second kills my shoulder.

What can I do to fix this shoulder instability? I've seen suggestions to do L pull up shrugs. If so, what sort of reps would I do? I don't believe it to be a flexibility issue as I am on HS PE7 im with shoulder width grip.

Thank you.

My suggestion is to practise/train the first part of your pull up. Start in a dead hang, with straight arms pull your self up as far as you can. This way you will be forced to use your stronger back muscles and put your scapula in a stable state. I made a small video to be more clear of what I mean.

Forget the video to the above post. Here we go again

Thanks Mats Trane!  

Tried focusing on the hollow and must say it is a lot harder...pretty much a different exercise than what I have been doing.  What seems to help me stay hollow is keeping my arm movement in the sagittal plane and limiting any drifting of the elbows out of that.  Perhaps that is what Joshua means by keeping the elbows tight?

Thanks to all that have chimed in!  Onward and upward I go!

Gillham said:

Thanks Mats Trane!  

Tried focusing on the hollow and must say it is a lot harder...pretty much a different exercise than what I have been doing.  What seems to help me stay hollow is keeping my arm movement in the sagittal plane and limiting any drifting of the elbows out of that.  Perhaps that is what Joshua means by keeping the elbows tight?

Thanks to all that have chimed in!  Onward and upward I go!

Not only is that what I meant, it is what I said earlier in the same post https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/12692-l-pull-up-shoulder-stability/page-2#entry123818

 

 

just keep pulling the ceiling down with good technique (no rolling the shoulders around or letting the elbows drift out).

Haha indeed you did, sir. Doh!

Lol It sounds like you're getting the hang of things, so keep up the good work!

Reporting back.  I went through a cycle of tuck chins then tuck pull ups then close grip L chins slowly inching my hands out over the course of several months, tried L pull ups yesterday and cranked out 3x2 solid without a hitch.

 

I have also been doing dumbbell pull overs each weak, kelso shrugs, overhead barbell shrugs and dip shrugs pretty consistently. 

 

That's my experience.  Looking forward to PE12....not (Borat style)