List of hold times for the exercises in BtGB

Hey all!

Doing the static and dynamic progressions in the book is pretty straightforward, but I do get confused as to when I have enough proficiency to move on the next progression.

Lets take an example. Currently i'm doing advanced frog planche at 3x6 sec, what would the hold time look like when i can move on to the next? 5x30 or...?

It would be cool if there was a list over all the exercises, with minimum hold times and reps, before next progression. Much like the 3x30 sec german hang before BL progressions. Has anyone compiled one? 

Sami Erdogan said:

Has anyone compiled one? 

Yes. It's called Foundation.

BtGB is more of a reference book; Foundation is a course that guides you through mastering most of the elements in BtGB. 

I am aware of foundation and have looked through it at my friends house, and tbh most of the exercises are below my current level, which is why i use BtGB.

Hm i wonder if we really should answer every question by laying out to buy foundation.

No offense here, i noticed it quite a bit in the past.

Although Josh is totally right. by purchasing foundation you will benefit the most. on the other hand there are quite a few people who aren't able to afford foundation or just do not want to buy it after they purchased bgtb.

for these people the board will become more and more useless with everyone just telling to purchase foundation.

I totally understand coach did change his point of view regarding the training of adults over the past years but maybe we should just make a sticky which tells everyone that foundation is the best way to go and answer questions like the one from the thread starter by delivering informations from the past and btgb.

To start off here is a list of hold times coach suggested in the past:

- Frog stand: 60s

- Adv. frog stand: 60s

- tucked planche: 60s

- adv. tucked planche: 60s

- straddle planche: 15s

- half lay planche: 15s (???)

- full planche: 10s (or more of course)

Sami Erdogan said:

I am aware of foundation and have looked through it at my friends house, and tbh most of the exercises are below my current level, which is why i use BtGB.

Don't be fooled. Completing Foundation 1 is very difficult. Give the mastery tests a try and see how well you actually stack up. If all the exercises are actually beneath your current level, then you can move on to Foundation 2, which goes beyond the level you're currently at. 

The most effective exercise to work on is generally not the most difficult exercise you are capable of performing. The fact that the F1 exercises are easy in low-reps does not mean you can't benefit greatly from mastering them. 

Sami Erdogan said:

I am aware of foundation and have looked through it at my friends house, and tbh most of the exercises are below my current level, which is why i use BtGB.

hehehe... you are not the only one that thought that............... and was completely wrong!

P5yx said:

Hm i wonder if we really should answer every question by laying out to buy foundation.

No offense here (...)

It is not every question; however, when Foundation is the best current answer to many a question, there is no need to deviate from it for the sake of misguided diversity.

The past is readily available to anyone willing to invest some time in using the search function; the more someone will learn about gymnastics, the more important Foundation will appear to be - at least, this is how I feel about it.

In addition, your recent and numerous questions about fine points and trivialities of some of the Foundation exercises show that you might be well served with an extra reading of the course materials. (no offense meant)

Yo can try it with this for static times:

max Hold time                      Holdtime from.. to                           sets                            total Time

26 s – 33 s                                    17 s – 20 s                             3-4                                60 s – 76 s

19 s – 25 s                                    13s – 16 s                               4 - 5                             52 s – 65 s

13 s – 18 s                                     9 s – 12 s                              4 - 4                               45 s – 60 s

8 s – 12 -s                                      3 s -8 s                                  5 -6                              36 s – 48 s

 

To start off here is a list of hold times coach suggested in the past:

- Frog stand: 60s

- Adv. frog stand: 60s

- tucked planche: 60s

- adv. tucked planche: 60s

- straddle planche: 15s

- half lay planche: 15s (???)

- full planche: 10s (or more of course)

 

 

This is more in the lines of what i meant, thanks for that P5yx.

 

 

No offense, but if your current holds for adv frog are 3x6, then maybe you should rethink the difference between the exercises themselves and mastery of those exercises.

I did actually try planche lean and after 3 months i could the mastery set, and actually continued to do planche lean on rings, which i'm currently 4x30 sec. 

 

 

The most effective exercise to work on is generally not the most difficult exercise you are capable of performing. The fact that the F1 exercises are easy in low-reps does not mean you can't benefit greatly from mastering them. 

I don't doubt that for a second, i just feel my time is better spent on harder progressions, and given that i have limited time to train every week, i have to prioritize what i believe benefits me the most - strength and progress wise. So when i can do 5x5 full ROM dips i feel like stepping backwards to master a lower progression that i might not have trained at all. I hope you understand what i am getting at.

 

 

The past is readily available to anyone willing to invest some time in using the search function; the more someone will learn about gymnastics, the more important Foundation will appear to be - at least, this is how I feel about it.

I actually did try to search a lot, but only came up with a couple of hits.

 

Yo can try it with this for static times:

 

 

max Hold time                      Holdtime from.. to                           sets                            total Time

26 s – 33 s                                    17 s – 20 s                             3-4                                60 s – 76 s

19 s – 25 s                                    13s – 16 s                               4 - 5                             52 s – 65 s

13 s – 18 s                                     9 s – 12 s                              4 - 4                               45 s – 60 s

8 s – 12 -s                                      3 s -8 s                                  5 -6                              36 s – 48 s

Thank you, that's very helpful.

FredInChina said:

hehehe... you are not the only one that thought that............... and was completely wrong!

And all over again on Foundation 2 >.<

I have to echo Charm and Fred on this one.  Multiple exercises, even in foundation 1, that i thought would be very easy (and are) are very challenging to complete for full mastery.  I have had significant benefits from working some of these more and it's helped my strength immensely.  For the rest, there is foundation 2.  Even in my strongest areas, i'm finding good benefits there.

As far as hold times go, on statics you should keep working on the previous progression until you can hold the next progression for at least 10 seconds.  If you are working tuck planches and can't hold  an advanced tuck planche for 10 seconds, you should keep working tuck planches.  Just a basic rule of thumb.  You will plateau if you try training the next step too soon.

Do not fall into the trap of always chasing numbers and always pushing harder movements. This will work for awhile but then it starts to slow down and you run into a wall that you can beat against all you want with little results. The progressions you end up skipping past start to address holes that you will not see until later in the process. GB is about results, none of the movements are waste. If they were not useful then they would not be there. You would be surprised how a "simple" movement from F1 can help somebody who is working movements that will be in F4.

Sami Erdogan said:

I am aware of foundation and have looked through it at my friends house, and tbh most of the exercises are below my current level, which is why i use BtGB.

Looking at something versus doing something is quite different. I thought... pahh... easy... as well. Then I tried the first elements, and was already stuck on some. Then the second elements on those I passed... and realised that I had serious holes. I don't think I graduated to any of the third elements on my first cycle.

I barely graduated to the first elements on some of them 

Sami Erdogan said:

I don't doubt that for a second, i just feel my time is better spent on harder progressions, and given that i have limited time to train every week, i have to prioritize what i believe benefits me the most - strength and progress wise. So when i can do 5x5 full ROM dips i feel like stepping backwards to master a lower progression that i might not have trained at all. I hope you understand what i am getting at.

I understand what you're getting at. The simple truth is that, unless you're OK with plateauing in a year or so, it is absolutely worth your time to go through and make sure you've mastered every movement. There is no fluff or filler in foundation: it's all stuff that you will need later on down the road.

 

 

As far as hold times go, on statics you should keep working on the previous progression until you can hold the next progression for at least 10 seconds.  If you are working tuck planches and can't hold  an advanced tuck planche for 10 seconds, you should keep working tuck planches.  Just a basic rule of thumb.

I didn't know about this rule, thanks. 

 

 

Do not fall into the trap of always chasing numbers and always pushing harder movements. This will work for awhile but then it starts to slow down and you run into a wall that you can beat against all you want with little results.  

 

I'm actually very conscious about making progress slowly and not rushing into movements that i'm not ready for. That is one mistake i have learned since starting this journey. But if proper de-loading and slow steady progress is applied, how could i then hit a wall?

 

 

The progressions you end up skipping past start to address holes that you will not see until later in the process. GB is about results, none of the movements are waste. If they were not useful then they would not be there.

I believe in Coach's abilities and experience to not make useless movements of course. But the degree of a movement's necessity of can be discussed i think. For example mastering the hollow body before lever training builds a great basis, but people have trained the lever progressions and mastered them, without doing hollow body training. 

 

 

I understand what you're getting at. The simple truth is that, unless you're OK with plateauing in a year or so, it is absolutely worth your time to go through and make sure you've mastered every movement.

As i wrote before, why would i plateau, if i apply slow and steady progression combined with a deloading period at the end of a training cycle? I agree with the point that you and others make about the exercises becoming useful later, but i disagree to the extent of them hindering my further progress. The reason i say that is that there will always some sort of carryover benefits within the same movement pattern, at least that has been my experience.

Many times those people do not have great levers but that is not really the point. Your scope is too narrow, don't just look at the end of Foundation. Look at swinging elements for example, what do you see? Hollow and Arch shapes during the movement.

Foundation is about building just that, this is all just the base of the pyramid....

Josh posting above here has a Maltese and has found Foundation work beneficial.

The plateau is not because of lack of proper loading and deloading it comes in due to there being gaps in your ability because you skipped training some movements.

Nic Branson said:

Many times those people do not have great levers but that is not really the point. Your scope is too narrow, don't just look at the end of Foundation. Look at swinging elements for example, what do you see? Hollow and Arch shapes during the movement.

Foundation is about building just that, this is all just the base of the pyramid....

Josh posting above here has a Maltese and has found Foundation work beneficial.

The plateau is not because of lack of proper loading and deloading it comes in due to there being gaps in your ability because you skipped training some movements.

I admit i'm too narrow focused, because as i said i only have limited time to train per week. But incorporating some elements from foundation could probably work out without neglecting my current training.

Doesn't the gaps depend on the exercise? I mean obviously not being able to do support hold, would make it impossible to do L-sit on rings. But movements that are close within the same movement pattern, would perhaps not be that big of a gap, and thus could more easily be trained to a proficient level.

First of all, it states quite clearly in BtGB that static exercises should be trained up to a 15 second hold.

Secondly, if you think foundation one is beneath your level, prove it.  Should only take 6 workouts...  and 5x15 pseudo planche pushups is easy, right?  Those are only half way through F1.

Thirdly, exercises that seem unrelated to the movement pattern or strength requirements of your goal movement can be very helpful.  Take say, hammer curls with a dumbbell.  You wouldn't think they could be useful for protecting your elbows during a rings handstand...

Fourth, and I'm paraphrasing coaches words in foundation, but Gymnastic Strength Training™ is about moving from simple to more complex moves.  Mastering the basics will build neuro-motor patterns that will lead to increased strength even though you aren't working at a level of resistance that you're used to.  You're learning how to use your body, which is easier to do with high volume and low resistance, because you get to really focus on form rather than simply getting through the set.

Fifth, it isn't all about maximum strength.  Endurance is important as well.

Sixth, Foundation is a well balanced program.  I'd like to see what your current program looks like, because I'm willing to bet it isn't as comprehensive as F1.  Unless you're a gymnastics/strength coach with decades of experience you probably don't know how to structure a workout as well as Coach.

Look, I'm not trying to badmouth you or dismiss any strength / knowledge you might have.  But we have people here with Iron cross, Maltese, Manna, ect and they are following Foundation like it's a religion.  In fact, the guy with the maltese couldn't even pass the first mastery for F1!

So I'm leaving you with some homework.  First, let us see what program you're currently following.  Second, make a video of yourself passing 0.5 level mastery.  You said you have a friend that has the program, or you could buy it and refund it after.

I'm trying not to sound like a dick here, but I dare you.

How much time do you currently spend training? The average Foundation workout takes 30-45 minutes and you can do them 3-5 times a week, depending on your recovery rate. That's not too much time, is it?

Many people here were working on intermediate and advanced skills when Foundation came out - they will all tell you that even when they completely stopped following their own programming (or the WODs) in order to focus on Foundation, they did not lose their skills (most will say they got better at them without specifically training for them).

So there is no need to desperately hold onto your own BtGB-based programming and cherry-pick a few Foundation exercises to spice it up. Just put your ego aside and enjoy the ride

Michaël said:

 

Many people here were working on intermediate and advanced skills when Foundation came out - they will all tell you that even when they completely stopped following their own programming (or the WODs) in order to focus on Foundation, they did not lose their skills (most will say they got better at them without specifically training for them).

This week I discovered I have a momentary straddle planche

I haven't even touched tuck planche work since F1 came out.

Seriously though. If someone knows about F1, but chooses to go with BtGB, why not help them too? Just as if someone wants to become a p-orn star (Why is p-orn a 'bad word?!) . I think it likely may hurt their s-ex life, but what right do I really have to say they shouldn't? Some enjoy it.

I love F1, and would never start with BtGB again, but if someone prefers not to.... This forum can get a bit mommy-ish. Inform them, and then help them in their choice.

(Omg s-ex....p-orn ohhhhhhhhh nooo!!   Almost everyone wants/uses it...why is it still taboo. We can see someones head cut off with every gory detail in the same movie that a s-ex scene is cut out.)

Prometheus said:

Seriously though. If someone knows about F1, but chooses to go with BtGB, why not help them too? Just as if someone wants to become a p-orn star (Why is p-orn a 'bad word?!) . I think it likely may hurt their s-ex life, but what right do I really have to say they shouldn't? Some enjoy it.

 

I love F1, and would never start with BtGB again, but if someone prefers not to.... This forum can get a bit mommy-ish. Inform them, and then help them in their choice.

 

 

(Omg s-ex....p-orn ohhhhhhhhh nooo!!   Almost everyone wants/uses it...why is it still taboo. We can see someones head cut off with every gory detail in the same movie that a s-ex scene is cut out.)

Well... that was sort of confusing, Pro

THe biggest issue as i see it is that F contains most of the information in BTGB, in far more detail. So training under Foundation course, it's hard not to give away information that belongs to that course. Plus we all agree that results will (generally) be inferior for non-gymnasts.

Yeah your absolutely right about giving information away from F1. That is why telling them the times that were posted earlier in this thread is a good idea. It is what they want, and what we all got when we bought the book. I am not supporting giving away F1 material either~.

Inferior or not, they purchased a product that just needed a decent programming for those skills, regardless of whether they are ready or not. Again, not everyone has the money. Plus, it isn't like the time tables posed on this thread are secrets. They are on many other sites, but they are associated with BtGB, so why not give it out? It just keeps people on this site instead of forcing them to go to another site.

Actually, I see a lot of threads where people with more advanced skill / strength requirements are asking for and receiving great advice.  It's only when a beginner comes along, and says they are just starting out and/or confused about how to program BtGB that we all jump immediately to recommending F1.

Remember, F1-4 is basically BtGB2.  And in this specific instance, it's very applicable.  The main problem people had with BtGB is the same one as OP had, programming.  Which is exactly why Coach created Foundation in the first place.

Also, to be fair, we did answer Sami Erdogans question...