The best gymnastic body?

[rubadub]

I still say that it is more than just possible, but in fact as or more efficient to build mass with gymnastic strength movements. Just because it isn't done doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be! Sort of like how athletes used to look down on weight training.

Resistance is resistance, be it from iron or bodyweight. So you could certainly achieve both types of hypertrophy with weights or gymnastics, depends on rep ranges etc as already mentioned. Personally I am aiming for a low level of hypertrophy, and I much prefer bodyweight exercises and some gymnastics training. I find weights quite boring and I also feel safer doing bodyweight exercises. I have heard the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy can result in "spongy" muscle, while myofibrillar would have a harder, tighter feel.

If an actor was to play a gymnast, and was using a double for any actual performances then I expect he would just train for the easiest quickest hypertrophy that he could (excluding method actors!)

I find it easier and prefer to simply add weights to my basic movements, so do weighted chinups, pullups, rope pullups, dips, pushups. I find this easier than training for advanced gymnastic moves, and easier to track progression. My goal is only a little hypertrophy, obviously the stronger you get the harder it would be to find gymnastic moves which would give adequate resistance to further grow your muscles. On youtube there are several groups of guys who claim to only use bodyweight exercise and are quite large. This is an interview with one, although he does state he used weights in the past

There is an interesting article here about female gymnasts and how they might benefit from using weights since it would keep them in lower rep ranges and so minimize hypertrophy.

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

[Guest cccp21]

I don't want to be rude, but practicaly is imposible to have a body like him with gymnastics. If you want big/insane hypertrophy, start bodybuilding style training.

Why is that true? I am a big guy at 250 pounds and 5' 10" and so far i have gotten terrific size through these methods

(gymnastics).

[Joshua Naterman]

I still say that it is more than just possible, but in fact as or more efficient to build mass with gymnastic strength movements. Just because it isn't done doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be! Sort of like how athletes used to look down on weight training.

Resistance is resistance, be it from iron or bodyweight. So you could certainly achieve both types of hypertrophy with weights or gymnastics, depends on rep ranges etc as already mentioned. Personally I am aiming for a low level of hypertrophy, and I much prefer bodyweight exercises and some gymnastics training. I find weights quite boring and I also feel safer doing bodyweight exercises. I have heard the sarcoplasmic hypertrophy can result in "spongy" muscle, while myofibrillar would have a harder, tighter feel.

If an actor was to play a gymnast, and was using a double for any actual performances then I expect he would just train for the easiest quickest hypertrophy that he could (excluding method actors!)

I find it easier and prefer to simply add weights to my basic movements, so do weighted chinups, pullups, rope pullups, dips, pushups. I find this easier than training for advanced gymnastic moves, and easier to track progression. My goal is only a little hypertrophy, obviously the stronger you get the harder it would be to find gymnastic moves which would give adequate resistance to further grow your muscles. On youtube there are several groups of guys who claim to only use bodyweight exercise and are quite large. This is an interview with one, although he does state he used weights in the past

There is an interesting article here about female gymnasts and how they might benefit from using weights since it would keep them in lower rep ranges and so minimize hypertrophy.

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0003/was.html

LOL, you will be training for many years before you get to the point where planche pushups, for example, no longer give adequate resistance to grow your muscles. No matter how much you train the weights, you will not be performing the really advanced gymnastics movements without training for them. I used to be able to do 20 dips with 140 lbs around my waist at a bodyweight of 230 and 10-12 wide pullups with 120 lbs, and I guarantee you I could not perform the same movements I can perform now! I remember playing around and sort of doing a retarded front lever, and some 45 degree planche holds, and even at that rather silly level of strength those were really, really hard and I couldn't do them right.The highest level progressions in gymnastics are amazingly hard, and not even all of the gymnasts seem to be able to do them. Having said that, I do think that gymnasts would benefit from specific weight training, especially rings and parallel bar specialists. Anyways, enjoy your training!

Also, if an actor absolutely HAD to play a gymnast, they would take the right steroids and train specifically for the skills they would need. They would be able to accomplish at least a year's worth of training in two months. I don't condone that stuff, but let's be real. No actor is going to put multiple years of training in to be a gymnast. There's no guarantee they could even get good enough to play the role! A few months of training and some maintenance work, then a second cycle, and they could be reasonably skilled and strong. That's what I think is the most likely scenario, anyways

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't want to be rude, but practicaly is imposible to have a body like him with gymnastics. If you want big/insane hypertrophy, start bodybuilding style training.

Why is that true? I am a big guy at 250 pounds and 5' 10" and so far i have gotten terrific size through these methods

(gymnastics).

You, sir, are the hulk.

I have also gotten pretty good development in these few short months I have been training. My shoulders and chest are getting bigger, forearms too!

[rubadub]

LOL, you will be training for many years before you get to the point where planche pushups, for example, no longer give adequate resistance to grow your muscles.

I agree, it would take a very long time

, I know I would never get to that stage and have no desire to. I am thinking of pro-bodybuilders, the likes of Ronnie Coleman who are shifting incredible weights. Though as they get bigger their BW gets heavier so in that way it is more resistance, and they could also incorporate weights vests etc.

.The highest level progressions in gymnastics are amazingly hard, and not even all of the gymnasts seem to be able to do them.

Yes it requires incredible skill, and I think many people whose only goal is hypertrophy would not have the time, skill or desire needed to train for them.

Also, if an actor absolutely HAD to play a gymnast, they would take the right steroids and train specifically for the skills they would need.

I was saying the actor would have a body double for any actual athletic performance, so he would need no actual gymnastic skills. I would expect they would just hit the weights in that case, or the more simple gymnastic moves, but not waste too much time practising skills.

[Joshua Naterman]

Yea, a lot of the highest level progressions don't seem like they have the best potential for hypertrophy anyhow. Seems like pseudoplanche pushups, handstand pushups, and some of the curl variations are the best there. And the planche pushup variations on parallettes if anyone took it that far.

[Robbie Main]

All this having been said about what is hypertrophy, what is possible, where you should train if you want what - when it comes down to it - when it comes down to The Gymnastic Body - and the exercises, skills etc that come with it - I still have this question:

- what is realistically achievable for someone who cannot spend professional hours in the gym?

- If I follow this book to the letter where will I end up?

Does anybody have any stories of their actual progression through to their best-to-date Gymnastic Body?

Fire it on this way! I'm ready for a little inspiration

[Joshua Naterman]

Depends on their genetic predisposition to athleticism. For the most part, they'll look reasonably normal and fit. They'll be strong, but not freakishly so. They will take a very long time to develop new skills, and will not come close to reaching their potential, but they will enjoy their workouts and their life. If they can't spend hours training then it isn't their priority, and they aren't going to care about reaching their potential. They just want to stay in shape and do some cool stuff, and that's what they'll do.

There will be some people who will really steam along, and some who don't get hardly anything out of it. You won't, for example, be built like me. Building what I have takes a reasonable amount of effort and dedication, and good genetics.

[Joshua Naterman]

Also, what do you mean by professional hours? To me, that means about around an hour and a half to two hours every day, but that's including stretching and exercise and active recovery, and that's with the goal of really good skill progression in the strength skills. It would take considerably more to be able to perform as a competitive gymnast, but for strength I think that's plenty.

[Guest cccp21]

Also, what do you mean by professional hours? To me, that means about around an hour and a half to two hours every day, but that's including stretching and exercise and active recovery, and that's with the goal of really good skill progression in the strength skills. It would take considerably more to be able to perform as a competitive gymnast, but for strength I think that's plenty.

********** Difficult to answer but what if one has the time(and desire) to spend about 12 hours a week. Genetics,diet and pharmacolgy(as well as other recovery means) play a role i realize.I believe most don't get anywhere near their potential

But i'll bet most can iron cross,planche,handstand push up and flip if they wanted to and were knowledgeable enough!

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

There appears to be a general lack of understanding in the world about what the word "want" means, functionally.

You can quote whatever dictionary you like and get something different than this, just as you can quote the law and find a sentence that can be used to allow a criminal to sue the homeowner he robbed and win. Textbook definitions don't matter when it comes to human psychology, what matters is how a word is used, and what the results are versus what the definition says. If you want something, you get it. People who ACTUALLY want something make the time, spend the money, learn whatever new skills they must, meet whoever they have to meet, and do whatever it takes to get what they want. And they do get it.

Everyone else who says the word "want" is saying "wish", in terms of function and fulfillment. Wishes are full of fervent desire, but are insubstantial. You can not wish for the planche and get it any more than you can wish to climb a column of smoke with your bare hands. It will always slip through your fingers, and float in the air mocking your feeble and uneducated attempt.

This holds true whether you are talking about a relationship, a house, a job, a car, or anything else that can be acquired, tangible or not. Failure to understand and live by this will open the door to failure. If you are honest about what you want and what you wish for, you will never disappoint yourself. The truth is that there are very few things that any one person truly wants. I don't play to peoples' wishes for sympathy, it's a waste of my time. Those who don't understand their own priorities have no business in my life.

I'm done with your what ifs, those are quite obviously unanswerable. If you want to know, go find out. There is no other way to know.

The skills you have described, with the [unlikely but] possible exception of planche in isolated cases, are achievable by anyone who actually wants to achieve them.

[Guest cccp21]

There appears to be a general lack of understanding in the world about what the word "want" means, functionally.

You can quote whatever dictionary you like and get something different than this, just as you can quote the law and find a sentence that can be used to allow a criminal to sue the homeowner he robbed and win. Textbook definitions don't matter when it comes to human psychology, what matters is how a word is used, and what the results are versus what the definition says. If you want something, you get it. People who ACTUALLY want something make the time, spend the money, learn whatever new skills they must, meet whoever they have to meet, and do whatever it takes to get what they want. And they do get it.

Everyone else who says the word "want" is saying "wish", in terms of function and fulfillment. Wishes are full of fervent desire, but are insubstantial. You can not wish for the planche and get it any more than you can wish to climb a column of smoke with your bare hands. It will always slip through your fingers, and float in the air mocking your feeble and uneducated attempt.

This holds true whether you are talking about a relationship, a house, a job, a car, or anything else that can be acquired, tangible or not. Failure to understand and live by this will open the door to failure. If you are honest about what you want and what you wish for, you will never disappoint yourself. The truth is that there are very few things that any one person truly wants. I don't play to peoples' wishes for sympathy, it's a waste of my time. Those who don't understand their own priorities have no business in my life.

I'm done with your what ifs, those are quite obviously unanswerable. If you want to know, go find out. There is no other way to know.

The skills you have described, with the [unlikely but] possible exception of planche in isolated cases, are achievable by anyone who actually wants to achieve them.

*********** Done with what if's? there only excitement to me about what i will achieve.

Don't care if you understand or not. Nuff said!

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

I don't know why the post that was critical of my character was deleted, maybe it was botted or something. Someone said I sound like a jerk sometimes, and it's true. I do, sometimes. I do sometimes say things that are better left unsaid, and sometimes I have unpopular views on things. Brandon, I think I actually was more talking about Leo's questions of where he would end up if he followed the book, as there is just no way to know. Your enthusiasm is great, and I apologize for not being clear about who I was speaking to. And as for Leo, I shouldn't have been so harsh. I stand by the general meaning, though. You're just going to have to find out what happens. You'll end up being able to do a lot of cool stuff that you can't do now!

[Coach Sommer]

I don't know why the post that was critical of my character was deleted,

I deleted it. Disagreements are fine, in fact I encourage them as often the ensuing discussion will examine sides of an issue that have not yet been explored. However name calling is neither productive nor permitted.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

[Joshua Naterman]

Fair enough. I appreciate the criticism, and also the good looking out Coach!

[Robbie Main]

Thank you to those that have replied to my post - much appreciated.

The question was more focused around finding out not what the elusive "could be's", "can be's" if's, but's or maybes - I was more wanting to know how this book (and site) has changed current and past users physiques and abilities. Concrete, real & positive experiences are great tools I find very motivating and was hoping that users of the site and book could perhaps share their results of their Personal Best Gymnastic Body.

[Jason Stein]

Leo,

I have trained using Coach Sommer's daily posted WOD's since January 1, 2009; I have trained exclusively with these WODs since March.

I'm 6-feet-2, 33 years old. I weighed approximately 143 pounds in January. I now weigh approximately 160. My bodyfat is 4-10 percent, depending on the site measured.

Meaning, I have put on roughly 15 pounds of muscle.

As Coach can attest, I am a long, lean guy. This year, and in particular the last three months, I have experienced significant, noticeable upper-body hypertrophy.

It's all been the result of diet and gymnastic performance-based training --- and I credit most of the hypertrophy to the ring-training, so much so that I'm now more cautiously approaching it. I don't want to look like Coach Sommer's assistant Jeff, Van Gelder, Gatlin, or any of these other guys who have to turn sideways to walk through doorways.

As far as quantifying numbers: on Tuesday I completed our gym's Baseline (500m row/40 squats/30 situps/20 pushups/10 pullups) in 4 minutes --- and I sandbagged the hell out of the row (1:50) in fear of spraying down the parking lot. [A 3:30 Baseline is considered very fit.]

So I'm not in great aerobic shape, but the strength and power gains I've made through the gymnastic training allowed me to put up a solid time, despite having having done absolutely no metabolic conditioning work in almost 4 months.

The other benefits I've reaped are much harder to quantify.

It's not like adding another 10 pounds to your O-lift du jour --- it's an infinitely more rewarding internal sensation of more fine-tuned body control, awareness, and strength, which only comes from, for example, chest rolls to HeS to free-standing HeSPUs, or L-sits to press-HS hold on rings, or the various embedded planche entrances and exits.

best,

jason

[Joshua Naterman]

Agreed. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I always forget how big I am, and occasionally I'll meet someone who I think is pretty darn big and they'll be like DAMN, you're f-in huge. For me, I started training the rings in early/mid february. It's now basically july, so call it 4.5 months. My chest has gotten noticeably bigger, as have my shoulders. I'm much stronger, I can't curl 185 again yet but I can do a really slow 15 second negative evenly through the motion with a straight bar. I'll be curling it again by the beginning of fall. Squats are variable, but I haven't lost any strength. I have gone from not being able to even hold a half-ass pseudoplanche without falling on my face to doing PSS pushups with my fingers back and wrist next to my hip bones. That's a huge increase, people flip out when they see it. Especially once they try it. I've gone from doing a 30 second tucked front and back lever on short rings to doing a 5-8 second full lay front lever on short rings and a one leg full lay one leg half-lay front lever on long rings. Full lay back lever for maybe 10 seconds on short rings, flat straddle back lever for 5-10 seconds on long rings. I mean, that's a lot of progress. For the planche, I can do flat tuck planche pushups in sets of 10 on the parallel bars, maybe sets of 3-5 on the short rings, and like 2 on the long rings lol! But they are coming! And I can hold a momentary straddle planche on p-bars. Not too bad for barely dong the tuck planche for 8 seconds on p-bars in February. My bench has gone up. I haven't maxed, and I'm not going to, but the day after ring training I can do 6-7 reps of 275 on bench with a 2 seconds down, 1 second pause, 2 seconds up tempo. I could do more if I went faster, but i won't do that until my shoulder's all better.

So from a big guys perspective, I have improved a lot on almost everything. I was already doing body levers for 10 reps or so, so that was nothing new. The HLL were and continue to be challenging. I found out a few days ago that I can do the manna support onthe ground! That's exciting news for me personally, I have tried for months and months with no success. I honestly thought that I was just too big. But apparently not! 6'2 225 and steaming ahead! It is really exciting, every month or so I find out I have advanced in something.

Before I started I don't know what I could have done on bench, I was just doing 15 fast reps with 235 and calling it a workout. My right shoulder was giving me trouble, and I was just stalled out on pretty much everything. Four months later my shoulder is so much better! Not perfect, but it will be. I am becoming more flexible and stronger than I've ever been, and for me that is a very very exciting thing to be able to say. And I look great. What more can you ask for? Coach has really made a permanent change in the way I view functional training, and what is possible. I have become much more enthusiastic about everything in my life because of this program! That's the best thing that has happened to me, a rejuvenated approach to life!

[Guest cccp21]

Agreed. I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I always forget how big I am, and occasionally I'll meet someone who I think is pretty darn big and they'll be like DAMN, you're f-in huge. For me, I started training the rings in early/mid february. It's now basically july, so call it 4.5 months. My chest has gotten noticeably bigger, as have my shoulders. I'm much stronger, I can't curl 185 again yet but I can do a really slow 15 second negative evenly through the motion with a straight bar. I'll be curling it again by the beginning of fall. Squats are variable, but I haven't lost any strength. I have gone from not being able to even hold a half-ass pseudoplanche without falling on my face to doing PSS pushups with my fingers back and wrist next to my hip bones. That's a huge increase, people flip out when they see it. Especially once they try it. I've gone from doing a 30 second tucked front and back lever on short rings to doing a 5-8 second full lay front lever on short rings and a one leg full lay one leg half-lay front lever on long rings. Full lay back lever for maybe 10 seconds on short rings, flat straddle back lever for 5-10 seconds on long rings. I mean, that's a lot of progress. For the planche, I can do flat tuck planche pushups in sets of 10 on the parallel bars, maybe sets of 3-5 on the short rings, and like 2 on the long rings lol! But they are coming! And I can hold a momentary straddle planche on p-bars. Not too bad for barely dong the tuck planche for 8 seconds on p-bars in February. My bench has gone up. I haven't maxed, and I'm not going to, but the day after ring training I can do 6-7 reps of 275 on bench with a 2 seconds down, 1 second pause, 2 seconds up tempo. I could do more if I went faster, but i won't do that until my shoulder's all better.

So from a big guys perspective, I have improved a lot on almost everything. I was already doing body levers for 10 reps or so, so that was nothing new. The HLL were and continue to be challenging. I found out a few days ago that I can do the manna support onthe ground! That's exciting news for me personally, I have tried for months and months with no success. I honestly thought that I was just too big. But apparently not! 6'2 225 and steaming ahead! It is really exciting, every month or so I find out I have advanced in something.

Before I started I don't know what I could have done on bench, I was just doing 15 fast reps with 235 and calling it a workout. My right shoulder was giving me trouble, and I was just stalled out on pretty much everything. Four months later my shoulder is so much better! Not perfect, but it will be. I am becoming more flexible and stronger than I've ever been, and for me that is a very very exciting thing to be able to say. And I look great. What more can you ask for? Coach has really made a permanent change in the way I view functional training, and what is possible. I have become much more enthusiastic about everything in my life because of this program! That's the best thing that has happened to me, a rejuvenated approach to life!

*********** I apologize for my response to your earlier post. I and my client are very excited about the gains we are getting.

We have been at this for about two months and both of us weigh 250(he at 6'2" myself at 5'10") . We are losing fat faster than expected(i guess the whole body work that we are getting consumes alot of energy) and our core in particular(no suprise!) seems acutely "hard". Our overall coordination has improved dramatically(even our ping pong games are better). And we have done nothing on the rings yet! For big men the coordination and the fat losses are particularly impressive. Looking forward in years to come to much improved physique, athleticism and enjoyment!

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

No worries man. The sooner you get started on the rings, the better! It will be humbling and frustrating at first, but you will adapt and get used to it. I'm glad you guys are enjoying everything you are doing! Keep it up

[Guest cccp21]

I don't want to be rude, but practicaly is imposible to have a body like him with gymnastics. If you want big/insane hypertrophy, start bodybuilding style training.

Gregor, you are halfway wrong. The part you are right about is that if you want to have a body like that, then your primary goal needs to be training for mass like a bodybuilder. The part you are wrong about is that it can't be done with gymnastics. There is nothing magical about weights that makes them grow muscle moreso than gymnastics. The reason that people grow with weights is that their volume, intensity, and frequency are modulated for hypertrophy. You can achieve the same results with Gymnastics. You just use the right progressions, so that you are within the rep range and time under tension that achieves the most hypertrophy, 8-14 reps over 20-40 seconds. If you can do more than that, time for a step up on the progressions! Having said that, a true bodybuilder would still need weights, because there are certain muscle groups that are less easily hypertrophied with gymnastics training, like the trapezius muscles. All you have is your bodyweight for shrugs. After that, even with vests you eventually taper out, and the pros are doing shrugs with something silly like 700 lbs or more. So in that sense, you would still need weights. But to build Van Gelder's body? Parallel bars and rings are all you need, man. Just use the bodybuilder mindset with gymnastic techniques, and you will have an amazing body that is also amazingly functional!

********** I am going to add to this one. Correct me if am wrong but resistance is not just resistance. Proprioception plays a role.

That is why lat pulls are not as effective as chins. Disadavantaged leverage is also a reason.People with bad levers for the bench get much more hypertrophy than people "built" to bench. In gymnastics all the exercices are "bad" leverage wise. The body adapts the way it needs to in order to accomplish the goal.

Brandon Green

[Joshua Naterman]

There's more to it than that. Diet plays a role, and so does genetics. We had one guy on my ship, Seaman Hardeman, who was special. I've never known anyone like him. He is naturally super thick and has huge bones, and since high school there hasn't been a day in his life that he couldn't go bench 350 for reps. It's ridiculous. He doesn't work out, because he just starts swelling up and he doesn't like being that big. On the other end of the scale is my buddy Ledesma, also on my ship at the time. He was benching 275 for 6-8 reps, but he didn't have big muscles. It was very bizzare. Some people are predisposed to grow, and some are predisposed not to. A lot of that has to do with the physical structure of one's muscle fibers. Apparently there are two basic ways they grow, either very parallel or one with another swirling around it. The parallel fibers don't hypertrophy much compared to the other way. THat appears to be why certain people are big for their strength level and others are small. I have really wide bones, but for my strength I am fairly small. I consistently outlift people that are at times considerably bigger than me. It just depends on too many things Kind of weird, huh?

[Joshua Naterman]

Also, instability builds more strength. Studies with vibroplates show that in a group of lifters with equal experience and ability, in this case squatters with 3 years consistent lifting and similar ability, half used a vibroplate with bodyweight and half continued their weight program. The bodyweight group on the vibroplate experienced slightly better size and strength gains. Go figure. The unstable nature of the rings will bring on immense strength gains. Size... who knows. I'm growing

[Guest cccp21]

Also, instability builds more strength. Studies with vibroplates show that in a group of lifters with equal experience and ability, in this case squatters with 3 years consistent lifting and similar ability, half used a vibroplate with bodyweight and half continued their weight program. The bodyweight group on the vibroplate experienced slightly better size and strength gains. Go figure. The unstable nature of the rings will bring on immense strength gains. Size... who knows. I'm growing

************* I have read that the Soviets had great results with vibration training.Vladimir Issurin i believe. My client and i have used a vibrational massager on muscle goups undergoing isometric contraction with great results.

[Richard Duelley]

Thank you to those that have replied to my post - much appreciated.

The question was more focused around finding out not what the elusive "could be's", "can be's" if's, but's or maybes - I was more wanting to know how this book (and site) has changed current and past users physiques and abilities. Concrete, real & positive experiences are great tools I find very motivating and was hoping that users of the site and book could perhaps share their results of their Personal Best Gymnastic Body.

Here you go. These are from last nights practice.

I am 6 feet tall 175 pounds, 8% body fat or so. I started a year ago and weighted in at 195 ish, and I dont have any pictures of myself with my shirt off because . . . well . . . I never took my shirt off, even at the pool. I was, lets just say, tall skinny and had a protruding midsection.