Started by Edward Smith, February 7, 2009 · 15 Replies · 6,181 Views
Ido,
You have suggested switching between 4 week cycles of high-volume lower-intensity and high(er)-volume low(er)-intensity. Could you please elaborate on your ideas for the high-intensity cycle? Things like:
- rep range
- amount of volume, relative to high volume cycle
- how hard you should work (i.e to failure, 1-2 reps short of failure, etc.)
Thanks,
Ed
I would be interested as well.
Well, I'm not Ido, but all I do are pretty much high intensity cycles now followed up with a week or so of active rest. For example, this is what I'm doing now.
Main exercise is one arm chins (OAC). Then I do 3-5 coupled sets of manna work + some other pressing work (hollow back presses, planche/maltese) if my body can handle it that day.
The OAC work is specifically according a couple factors. I've been working it 5x a week and have been doing:
1. Test my max 1 times per week.
2. Density work 2 times per week (decrease the rest times, lower reps per set)
3. Regular strength 2 times per week (~5-7 mins rest stopping 1 rep short of failure)
The higher the intensity of the movement, the less volume you can use. In this case, I'm only working 5-10 reps per day since I'm doing 5x a week.
Progress is VERY VERY VERY fast if you can avoid [overuse] injuries. With the OAC I've worked myself from 6x1 to 3x3 in 12 days. Anyone who has done a OAC can appreciate how hard it is to add reps. This mirrors my experience from this thread where I increased my weighted chinups from 6x3 +55 lbs to 4x3 +90 lbs in 4 weeks... +35 lbs added to your chin in 4 weeks essentially.
Your current plan sound very much like daily undulated periodization, Steve. Just 20 minutes prior to writing this I read about one of the key factors behind DUP is now believed to be the nervous system. Despite the DUP showing superior strength in bench and leg press, the body composition difference between groups were not significant. I guess that helps back up the claims that the nervous system adapts rapidly (within 4 weeks).
So, on density training, are you just concerned with uping the density of 5-10 reps, or do you try to increase the volume, too? Do you also stop short of failure for this, or just go for it?
Yep, I first read about DUP sometime in '06 I believe, and it influenced my training for cross and subsequent production of my iron cross article. That said, I'm not sure I would actually call this DUP... well, the original article I reason on abcbb.com was on varying rep schemes such as 3x10, 3x7, 3x4 or something M,W,F. My currect scheme is modified towards testing by "max rep day" + "max strength" + "density" as you know... I suppose DUP could be modified with a rep scheme low enough to do that. Shrug. Take it for what you will.
The density I do is time dependent to increase the intensity. An increase in the reps would just be more stress on the joints. For example:
B = both arms
Wed 2/4: Every min on the min 1x1B. 10 rounds. Density = 10chins/9 mins rest total = 1.11 chin/min ratio
Sat 2/7: 5x2B every 90s on 90s. Density = 10 chins/6 mins rest total = 1.67 chin/min ratio
Even though volume is the same, the same amount of stress in less time = increase in intensity (or power if you prefer).
It is my experience that if you keep the volume low enough to avoid significan overreaching, the nervous system adapts within a week or so. There's no other explanation for such fast increases. Well, my muscles do seem to be growing a little bit but that's just secondary.
One thing I am re-learning quickly is the importance of volume control. I used to push it too much in the past. Everyday, I would just keep adding reps. Then, some minor joint pain, and progress halts. Recently, I was messing with the Prilepin table for weighted pull ups. Despite staying in the optimum range for 90% or greater of 1 RM, my left elbow got fried. Just cumulitive fatigue and stress. To guinea pig myself, I would push past some discomfort, because the table has to be right. Right? My intuition was right, I was overtraining. At the very least, I was overtraining mt left elbow. I never had any other muscle soreness. One thing I hate about that table, is no rest periods are defined. I'm sure I could do 7 95% max singles in one day with little trouble, but in 30 minutes is another story. The other thing, 90% and 100% is a huge jump from my experience. I cannot comprehend how someone could prescribe the same volume for both ends of that spectrum in the same amount of time. The other thing is, I wasn't kamikazeeing things too much. My routine was every other day, alternating bodyweight pull ups, and weighted. For instance, M = Bodyweight, T = rest, W = Weighted, R =rest, F= Bodyweight, S =rest, Sun = weighted, M = rest.
It worked ok until I increased the weight I used from about 90% to 95%+. I don't think it was a bad way to train, in general, it was providing enough stress, just too much for one joint. I guess, know your body, and account for weak links.
Yeah. If your body can't handle the training then you need to back off and build up/condition and do prehab for your joints, etc. Then you can try again, but ONLY once you are fully recovered.
Most of my training is fairly sporadic like this with the "lower" intensity work where I don't make much progress, but when I feel I'm ready for high intensity cycles I go and make a huge amount of progress. I'm trying to work on a way to integrate the two more closely.. so we'll see. I'd like to train hard more often but it's how much the tendons/ligaments/joints can handle that is generally always the limiting factor.
ed x said:Ido,You have suggested switching between 4 week cycles of high-volume lower-intensity and high(er)-volume low(er)-intensity. Could you please elaborate on your ideas for the high-intensity cycle? Things like:
- rep range
- amount of volume, relative to high volume cycle
- how hard you should work (i.e to failure, 1-2 reps short of failure, etc.)
Thanks,
Ed
I am curious about this as well, but I think you meant to say high-volume low-intensity and low-volume high-intensity?
Hi,
I'm not Ido clearly but I will try to help out...and if I am wrong someone can correct me. I believe what Chris described is a form of undulating periodization. I think that it could be called cycling in a similar sense to the steady state but the difference is that steady state is a constant steady adaption to a set load (overload through to underload with the same load.) whereas undulating is typically using a different training focus/ overload and underload when alternating between phases.
I think that what the undulating method is...is alternating between periods of lower intensity/ higher volume to stress through volume "accumulation" (might be good to increase work capacity) and then going to higher intensity lower volume (more max strength "intensification").
I know Charles Poliquin has mentioned this method before so maybe some reading by him would help out a bit. I had an idea for incorporating this method with Coach Sommers progressions: simply drop back a few progressions for the low intensity high volume and use the intense exercises (3-5 reps) for the intensification phase. You could say increase by one rep on all exercises each intensifcation and scale the accumulation accordingly? So for intensification: 3X3 then next intensification 3X4 for all exercises. Just a thought.
Poliquin *I think* often changes to a new phase when the nervous system has adapted to a certain workout (often around 6 workouts of the same kind) and spark a new stimulus. He can also use accumulation for hypertrophy and intensification for upping the loads so when going back to hypertrophy you can lift heavier thus more gains but I'm guessing that's not what most people here want. Also I believe that many say deloading (halfing VOLUME not intensity) is critical!
As I said there may be some things that I said that are incorrect as I am not 100% with everything but hope this helps/ gives you an idea.
Just one point, you don't want to drop back and stay in this for long. I did this with pistols, and overtrained in that particular (easier position) movement while I detrained my ability to come out of a deeper position. At first, I got much stronger in every range of motion, but after a few weeks I began declining. I would not drop back and stay only at a lower intensity progression for more than two weeks.Gymrob: I had an idea for incorporating this method with Coach Sommers progressions: simply drop back a few progressions for the low intensity high volume
braindx said:Well, I'm not Ido, but all I do are pretty much high intensity cycles now followed up with a week or so of active rest. For example, this is what I'm doing now.Main exercise is one arm chins (OAC). Then I do 3-5 coupled sets of manna work + some other pressing work (hollow back presses, planche/maltese) if my body can handle it that day.
The OAC work is specifically according a couple factors. I've been working it 5x a week and have been doing:
1. Test my max 1 times per week.
2. Density work 2 times per week (decrease the rest times, lower reps per set)
3. Regular strength 2 times per week (~5-7 mins rest stopping 1 rep short of failure)
The higher the intensity of the movement, the less volume you can use. In this case, I'm only working 5-10 reps per day since I'm doing 5x a week.
Progress is VERY VERY VERY fast if you can avoid [overuse] injuries. With the OAC I've worked myself from 6x1 to 3x3 in 12 days. Anyone who has done a OAC can appreciate how hard it is to add reps. This mirrors my experience from this thread where I increased my weighted chinups from 6x3 +55 lbs to 4x3 +90 lbs in 4 weeks... +35 lbs added to your chin in 4 weeks essentially.
While I can't do a OAC, I know quite a bit about strength training.
Max testing should NOT be do constantly if you want to do it constantly do it monthly if you wish to push it (hellooooo injuries) every 3 weeks. Every 1 week is just asking for an injury. especially if you are training the OAC (elbow). And it doesn't help at all in strength gaining.
Andres said:While I can't do a OAC, I know quite a bit about strength training.Max testing should NOT be do constantly if you want to do it constantly do it monthly if you wish to push it (hellooooo injuries) every 3 weeks. Every 1 week is just asking for an injury. especially if you are training the OAC (elbow). And it doesn't help at all in strength gaining.
Well, hey, so do I...
1. Elbow injuries are of no concern. They have fully adapted (from previous cross work). I have had no problems with them at all.
2. I'm not "maxing" in the sense of what you think I am doing. I am testing my endurance reps. This is critical for any frequent training program that relies primarily on neurological gains for strength such as grease the groove to gauge improvement and make further adjustments to the program.
3. I have in the past tested 1 RM with weighted dips and pullups once a week. I feel this is necessarily (although can be gauged with 2-3 RM instead), and of no concern for injuries as long as the cycle is short and/or you listen to your body when it's telling you to stop (such as sore elbows with heavy weighted dips).
Heh, well, I don't know about you, but I probably could NOT have worked up to +170 lbs dip and +130 lbs pullup without frequent "testing" especially with 1-3 RM work focusing on CNS strength.
Andres said:braindx said:Well, I'm not Ido, but all I do are pretty much high intensity cycles now followed up with a week or so of active rest. For example, this is what I'm doing now.Main exercise is one arm chins (OAC). Then I do 3-5 coupled sets of manna work + some other pressing work (hollow back presses, planche/maltese) if my body can handle it that day.
The OAC work is specifically according a couple factors. I've been working it 5x a week and have been doing:
1. Test my max 1 times per week.
2. Density work 2 times per week (decrease the rest times, lower reps per set)
3. Regular strength 2 times per week (~5-7 mins rest stopping 1 rep short of failure)
The higher the intensity of the movement, the less volume you can use. In this case, I'm only working 5-10 reps per day since I'm doing 5x a week.
Progress is VERY VERY VERY fast if you can avoid [overuse] injuries. With the OAC I've worked myself from 6x1 to 3x3 in 12 days. Anyone who has done a OAC can appreciate how hard it is to add reps. This mirrors my experience from this thread where I increased my weighted chinups from 6x3 +55 lbs to 4x3 +90 lbs in 4 weeks... +35 lbs added to your chin in 4 weeks essentially.
While I can't do a OAC, I know quite a bit about strength training.
Max testing should NOT be do constantly if you want to do it constantly do it monthly if you wish to push it (hellooooo injuries) every 3 weeks. Every 1 week is just asking for an injury. especially if you are training the OAC (elbow). And it doesn't help at all in strength gaining.
I'm not trying to make a pile up, but Westside Barbell maxes out every week. Of course, their program is designed around doing so. Not surprisingly, they claim to make gains very frequently. I really don't see anything wrong with it if you regulate yourself. If you do what I did, and nearly max pullups twice a week on top of regular pull ups, then, yeah, you can overtrain. It was too much volume for the intensity, and I was ignoring pain. Oh, well, it was an experience.
braindx said:Andres said:While I can't do a OAC, I know quite a bit about strength training.Max testing should NOT be do constantly if you want to do it constantly do it monthly if you wish to push it (hellooooo injuries) every 3 weeks. Every 1 week is just asking for an injury. especially if you are training the OAC (elbow). And it doesn't help at all in strength gaining.
Well, hey, so do I...
1. Elbow injuries are of no concern. They have fully adapted (from previous cross work). I have had no problems with them at all.
2. I'm not "maxing" in the sense of what you think I am doing. I am testing my endurance reps. This is critical for any frequent training program that relies primarily on neurological gains for strength such as grease the groove to gauge improvement and make further adjustments to the program.
If you have read pavel's work I supose you have since you know about greasing the groove, you would know that the main focus of greasing the groove is to not come EVEN CLOSE to maximg out, "Do as much quality work as possible while being as fresh as posible". Straight from his words. I would like to see a person maxing out every week for a year, if you are still gaining strenght at the end of the year and haven't had any injuries (big or small) then. 1.either you did not max completely or 2. You are afreak of nature.
3. I have in the past tested 1 RM with weighted dips and pullups once a week. I feel this is necessarily (although can be gauged with 2-3 RM instead), and of no concern for injuries as long as the cycle is short and/or you listen to your body when it's telling you to stop (such as sore elbows with heavy weighted dips).
Heh, well, I don't know about you, but I probably could NOT have worked up to +170 lbs dip and +130 lbs pullup without frequent "testing" especially with 1-3 RM work focusing on CNS strength.
Sorry for the reply being sloppy I'm doing this on my iphone. And to respond your point 3. I also do 1-3s but it doesn't mean that if I'm working the 1s that I'm working 1rm, just being very heavy (I also 1rm don't get.me wrong not a lot). My other response is in the middle if the post above.
ed x said:Ido,You have suggested switching between 4 week cycles of high-volume lower-intensity and high(er)-volume low(er)-intensity. Could you please elaborate on your ideas for the high-intensity cycle? Things like:
- rep range
- amount of volume, relative to high volume cycle
- how hard you should work (i.e to failure, 1-2 reps short of failure, etc.)
Thanks,
Ed
What about the so called "block" periodization?
Brandon Green