planche lean hand positions

Hey guys,

 

two questions regarding planche leans:

 

1) coach mentioned that we shouldn't start with hands turned backwards (45 degrees) planche leans at the beginning because of to much strain for the brachialis muscle.

Would it be ok to start training them AFTER achieving mastery in planche leans?

 

2) in the description of the planche lean in f1 it's mentioned to keep the hands directly IN FRONT OF the hips.
sry for overanalyzing things here but wich part of the hand should be in front of the hips? i mean a hand is about 20 cm so if only the heels of my hands should be in front of my hip it would obviously be much easier than if only the fingertips are in front.  so can you please tell which exact part of the hand should be in front of the hips in either
a) hand position like the one your athlete shows in sPL/PE5
b) hands facing backward (fingers pointing 45 degrees backwards and thumbs to the sides)

 

thanks in advance

p5yx

1. Master rope climbing, RTO support, and supinated grip BL first. I'm sure Coach or a mod will chime in with a better answer.

2. The main point of contact should be in front of your COM. This will be different for each hand position. With fingers forward, I think it's at the middle of the fingers or at the ball of the fingers. With fingers sideways, it is on the part of your hands that is by the thumbs and index fingers. With fingers backwards, it is at the heel of the palms or by the wrists.

P5yx said:

Hey guys,

two questions regarding planche leans:

1) coach mentioned that we shouldn't start with hands turned backwards (45 degrees) planche leans at the beginning because of to much strain for the brachialis muscle.

Would it be ok to start training them AFTER achieving mastery in planche leans?

Actually Id be interested in hearing more about this too. At what stage can this be (productively) introduced? Are we talking post foundation because there are too many other bigger factors to address first? Or a preq-req list as Brian suggests (all of which I have)?

Having achieved bicep/brachialis strength "the hard way" (trial and error), I couldn't say exactly when it is appropriate for a beginning to start placing their fingers back. My guess would be that it's prudent to wait until you've finished the RC and sPL progressions.

Joshua Slocum said:

Having achieved bicep/brachialis strength "the hard way" (trial and error), I couldn't say exactly when it is appropriate for a beginning to start placing their fingers back. My guess would be that it's prudent to wait until you've finished the RC and sPL progressions.

As always Im ambitious but in no rush, so the side of prudence is the one i choose to err on

Charm said:

As always Im ambitious but in no rush, so the side of prudence is the one i choose to err on

between planche leans and support on rings eventually building them towards RTO, which one would have to come first? or after ring dips?

I can hold a tuck for a long time with hands sideways, RC is ok but I doubt mastery and have a strong back lever.  I could progress my sPL to the end of F2 with sideways hands however I started with planks hands backwards and I am now on leans hands backwards and can hold a hands back tuck for just as long as I can do hands sidewards.

I did it this way because it feels more natural hands back for me and I get a nasty pain in my palms training hands sideways for a long time that ruins my training for weeks.

 

I would do as coach suggested however I have found that taking it extremely slow: I'm on my 20th week of leans with hands back, has caused me no issues in terms of bicep strain.  In fact my biceps have grown more size from doing this exercise, using no supplements other than vitamins and even eating at an overall deficit (most of my cals are PWO though) than when I used to use dangerous "supplements" and body build.

@b1214n: thx great answer regarding the second question.

i didn't thought it would take that much time to start with planche leans hands facing backwards.... i'm asiking because a hands facing backwards planche is one of my long term goals. so there are a few questions left:

1) can you (especially coach) name the exact progressions towards a hands facing backwards planche lean?

2) once i am able to achieve mastery in a hands facing backwards planche lean woild it be save to start the other planche progressions (advanced frog, tucked planche, ...) also with hands facing backwards?

Zach Armijo said:

I'm in the same boat with Josh. I am a disciple of BtGB so I had a very solid BL for foundation work, so i couldn't say when that turning point was. But i would say that if you have solid RTO supports and a good RC as mentioned before, you should be good to experiment with different hand positions. This does NOT mean you should start at your already current level of lean. Start from a plank position and move from there with the lean. 

Thanks Zach, sounds very reasonable. I'll introduce this hand position into my sPl warmup elements gradually

P5yx said:

@b1214n: thx great answer regarding the second question.

i didn't thought it would take that much time to start with planche leans hands facing backwards.... i'm asiking because a hands facing backwards planche is one of my long term goals. so there are a few questions left:

1) can you (especially coach) name the exact progressions towards a hands facing backwards planche lean?

Have patience. It'll show up in Foundation (or whatever comes after) when Coach thinks it's a good time to start training it. If you're super-anxious to get started and trek out on your own, there's plenty of info on this website about elbow preparation.

ok i was just curious about it. i wanted to start hands backwards planche lean after i've mastered sPL/PE5 (planche lean)

with hands shown like in the video and do what zach suggested. going by trial and error (and really observing my body at the time).

Joshua Slocum said:

Have patience. It'll show up in Foundation (or whatever comes after) when Coach thinks it's a good time to start training it. If you're super-anxious to get started and trek out on your own, there's plenty of info on this website about elbow preparation.

I've put it back on the back-burner after noticing my left (less flexible) wrist is a little uncomfortable with it. A couple more months of wrist stretches and I might think about looking at it again, no rush after all

P5yx said:

ok i was just curious about it. i wanted to start hands backwards planche lean after i've mastered sPL/PE5 (planche lean)

with hands shown like in the video and do what zach suggested. going by trial and error (and really observing my body at the time).

Just be aware that beginning hands-backwards training so early has been explicitly discouraged by Coach: you're heading into potentially dangerous territory.

Straight-arm strength is an area where slow-and-steady gets you where you want to go, but jumping ahead tends to lead to injury.

thx josh, i will keep it in mind.

 

like i've said i wanted to start it AFTER i've mastered the planche lean with hand position shown in the video.

 

i also have 2x30s rto support and had a 5x10s hands backwards planche lean before i've started f1.

so i'm not total new to hands facing backwards. i also had a 30s hands backwards l-sit on ground.

 

it's really difficult to decide for me when to start. on the one side i really want to work on these. like i've said a hands facing

backwards full planche is one of my long term goals. on the other side i really want to follow the progressions suggested.

but i don't think hands facing backwards planche lean will appear later in the foundation series.

 

i also didn't think that a hands backwards planche lean would be too much tension for the biceps tendon.

Indeed i thought it would be one of those movement to PREPARE your biceps tendon...

P5yx said:

thx josh, i will keep it in mind.

 

like i've said i wanted to start it AFTER i've mastered the planche lean with hand position shown in the video.

 

i also have 2x30s rto support and had a 5x10s hands backwards planche lean before i've started f1.

so i'm not total new to hands facing backwards. i also had a 30s hands backwards l-sit on ground.

 

it's really difficult to decide for me when to start. on the one side i really want to work on these. like i've said a hands facing

backwards full planche is one of my long term goals. on the other side i really want to follow the progressions suggested.

but i don't think hands facing backwards planche lean will appear later in the foundation series.

 

i also didn't think that a hands backwards planche lean would be too much tension for the biceps tendon.

Indeed i thought it would be one of those movement to PREPARE your biceps tendon...

if I haven't mastered, RC/PE6, i wouldn't think my bicep tendon prepared to deal with this. 

P5yx said:

it's really difficult to decide for me when to start. on the one side i really want to work on these. like i've said a hands facing

backwards full planche is one of my long term goals. on the other side i really want to follow the progressions suggested.

but i don't think hands facing backwards planche lean will appear later in the foundation series.

i also didn't think that a hands backwards planche lean would be too much tension for the biceps tendon.

Indeed i thought it would be one of those movement to PREPARE your biceps tendon...

I know the idea of waiting probably seems really frustrating. but the fact is, the work you're doing now is already working you toward your goals. When it's time to start working hands backwards planche, you won't have to work through all of the planche progressions from the beginning all over again. You'll just have to go through the elbow/bicep preparation, and then all of your hands-forwards/sideways planche strength will carry over to hands-backwards planche. And all of the rope-climb work in foundation is already giving you a very healthy dose of bicep training. It might not be obvious, but the training you're doing now is already preparing you for the hands-backwards planche.

[Also, as a note, the hands-backwards planche is extremely taxing on the biceps. It's just one step below the iron cross and maltese in terms of bicep strain. It is not a joke.]

ok i got it. sry for beeing repetetive here, but what i really like to here is like a fixpoint when to start hands backwards planche leans (only talking about leans here).

Let's say something like RC/PE6. Just some progress i can work to.

P5yx said:

2) once i am able to achieve mastery in a hands facing backwards planche lean woild it be save to start the other planche progressions (advanced frog, tucked planche, ...) also with hands facing backwards?

Planche leans with hands backwards have more stress than adv tuck planches with hands backwards if you lean far enough like with maximum lean.

 

If you want to further prepare your biceps for this, then I suggest adding in bicep curls or ring curls to further build up biceps strength. I recommend being able to curl your body weight or close to it. You can also take a look at Coach's elbow preparation thread which show you the prerequisites before iron cross and rings planche.

ok thx! i've looked over ic preparing thread and left a comment for those who haven't purchased f1.

when would you suggest to start hands backwards planche lean looking at the suggested progressions for ic biceps conditioning?

my goes is after a solid rto support is achieved combined with reaching some point at the RC progressions.

P5yx said:

ok thx! i've looked over ic preparing thread and left a comment for those who haven't purchased f1.

when would you suggest to start hands backwards planche lean looking at the suggested progressions for ic biceps conditioning?

my goes is after a solid rto support is achieved combined with reaching some point at the RC progressions.

If you don't mind me asking, why are you so anxious to start hands-backwards planche leans?

P5yx said:

ok thx! i've looked over ic preparing thread and left a comment for those who haven't purchased f1.

when would you suggest to start hands backwards planche lean looking at the suggested progressions for ic biceps conditioning?

my goes is after a solid rto support is achieved combined with reaching some point at the RC progressions.

bro...

 

let's sit  down and talk for a moment. 

 

a -lot- of people have chimed in on this. 

 

take a deep breath. 

 

it is okay to not do this right now. a host of members (including several who are gymnasts and have the position you seek under their belts) have said that they recommend: 1. don't do it right now. 2. you're receiving the training your body needs to build a strong base. trust them on this,  i was REALLY into getting a dragon flag before i started F1. i've been working FL/PE1 and i got a 10 sec negative(play attention because this is the important part) without training for it.

 

several more athletes can fill in and tell you similar experiences! 

 

Daniel Burnham can perform one arm chins on both arms(if i remember correctly, if need be, lets just say one arm) and he said he got that due to Rope Climb progressions. 

 

imagine how bummed out you would be as an athlete learning pulling strength to be working on Rope Climbs and one arm chins. the answer is you'd get hurt and be losing precious time moving forward. 

 

I'm really stoked with your enthusiasm with pushing forward and making yourself a better athlete, mover, person, on the other hand, i got to say(reitorating the good conscious of everyone else) practice patience.

 

 moving forward is a great skill to have when learning to drive, as is knowing when to turn, when to stop and when to go backwards. 

 

avoid having to go back and losing time by enjoying the ride.

KeilaniG said:

bro...

 

let's sit  down and talk for a moment. 

 

a -lot- of people have chimed in on this. 

 

take a deep breath. 

 

it is okay to not do this right now. a host of members (including several who are gymnasts and have the position you seek under their belts) have said that they recommend: 1. don't do it right now. 2. you're receiving the training your body needs to build a strong base. trust them on this,  i was REALLY into getting a dragon flag before i started F1. i've been working FL/PE1 and i got a 10 sec negative(play attention because this is the important part) without training for it.

 

several more athletes can fill in and tell you similar experiences! 

 

Daniel Burnham can perform one arm chins on both arms(if i remember correctly, if need be, lets just say one arm) and he said he got that due to Rope Climb progressions. 

 

imagine how bummed out you would be as an athlete learning pulling strength to be working on Rope Climbs and one arm chins. the answer is you'd get hurt and be losing precious time moving forward. 

 

I'm really stoked with your enthusiasm with pushing forward and making yourself a better athlete, mover, person, on the other hand, i got to say(reitorating the good conscious of everyone else) practice patience.

 

 moving forward is a great skill to have when learning to drive, as is knowing when to turn, when to stop and when to go backwards. 

 

avoid having to go back and losing time by enjoying the ride.

Quoted to remind myself too --__-- "

 

Edit;

P5YX-- I sort of get the impression you're restless as heck due to your injury (injuries?) and have been reading and planning a lot. This is good, but keep your perspective the whole point of Foundation is to get you to advanced as directly (if not necessarily quickly) as possible, without injuring yourself in the process. There really isn't a need to add your planning to a comprehensive professional program-- F1 is basics, but the work ramps up quickly once you have fundamental positions down, and the end result elements are damn impressive.

 

Specifically for this, remember you'll also need a hand-backward support sometime for middle split (manna) training anyway. I've no doubt this will definitely be addressed along the way

ok thx guys. You're right. this is really my biggest weakness. i'll try to sit back and take it slow from now on. at least i try.

i learn pretty fast and build strength pretty fast as well. e.g. got a strict slow muscle up after a week of training on both rings and stall bar. BUT as soon as i achieve something i'm not satisfied anymore. i'm really aiming for perfection in this things.

I'll tend to injure myself very often because of progressing way too fast. my strength increases very fast but all the other things

(moblity, tendon strength) is behind strength everytime.

 

i really have to concentrate on trusting the system and take it slow. thanks to all of you. sometimes i need to get reminded...

 

@josh: i'm so currious of hands backwards planches, because they and floor malteses were the reason i've started gst and are still my main goal to achieve.

i wanted to start hands backwards because i was concerned it wouldn't be addressed in foundation. That's why i stress so much on this...

P5yx said:

i wanted to start hands backwards because i was concerned it wouldn't be addressed in foundation. That's why i stress so much on this...

I have good news for you. You don't need to be doing hands backwards planche leans to be working towards a hands-backwards planche. Foundation work *is* helping you to build up to it. The hands-forward/sideways planche work builds the same strength that the hands-backwards planche uses, and the rope-climb progressions are helping to strengthen your bicep tendons.

So since we shouldn't work on hands backwards would you recommend hands like shown in the video by the athlete

(45 degrees forwards) or hands to the sides?

from what would i benefit more?