Manna requires shoulder flexibility?

You try the best to retract your scapulae as much as you can in a manna.

I lean too far back in my V-sit, however I can do it vertical with little to no lean. I just cannot get past 90 degrees without a fair bit of lean (this is shown in the v-sit critique form previously mentioned in this thread). 

 

I never knew that you are supposed to retract your scapulae during a manna, I thought protraction was the way to go for the reasons Bipocni mentioned along with the fact that victorians are performed with protraction. But it would make sense because the shoulder angle is so different between the victorian and the manna. I'll apply this to my v-sit and manna training! 

 

I must mention that although the shoulders need a great deal of active flexibility for a manna, that the tricep strength required to get into the move and hold it is completely incomprehensible until one can lift from a MSH into a beyond-vertical v-sit (which I cannot). I can only train v-sits on 2 days per week due to the immense CNS taxing, although it is getting better.

 

One last point: there is a reason Coach has us learn manna with the MSH approach, rather than continually raising the v-sit until one achieves a manna. This is because Coach's progressions begin working the shoulders and triceps immediately, rather than doing v-sits which put off the mobility requirements for when there is a significant amount of muscle mass and strength already there, but no mobility.

aiken54 said:

One last point: there is a reason Coach has us learn manna with the MSH approach, rather than continually raising the v-sit until one achieves a manna. This is because Coach's progressions begin working the shoulders and triceps immediately, rather than doing v-sits which put off the mobility requirements for when there is a significant amount of muscle mass and strength already there, but no mobility.

Ahh, Coach and his mobility work.  I'd hate him for it if I wasn't pretty sure I couldn't accomplish anything without it....

aiken54 said:

I lean too far back in my V-sit, however I can do it vertical with little to no lean. I just cannot get past 90 degrees without a fair bit of lean (this is shown in the v-sit critique form previously mentioned in this thread). 

 

I never knew that you are supposed to retract your scapulae during a manna, I thought protraction was the way to go for the reasons Bipocni mentioned along with the fact that victorians are performed with protraction. But it would make sense because the shoulder angle is so different between the victorian and the manna. I'll apply this to my v-sit and manna training! 

 

I must mention that although the shoulders need a great deal of active flexibility for a manna, that the tricep strength required to get into the move and hold it is completely incomprehensible until one can lift from a MSH into a beyond-vertical v-sit (which I cannot). I can only train v-sits on 2 days per week due to the immense CNS taxing, although it is getting better.

 

One last point: there is a reason Coach has us learn manna with the MSH approach, rather than continually raising the v-sit until one achieves a manna. This is because Coach's progressions begin working the shoulders and triceps immediately, rather than doing v-sits which put off the mobility requirements for when there is a significant amount of muscle mass and strength already there, but no mobility.

Very interesting. Thanks for that tidbit

aiken54 said:

I never knew that you are supposed to retract your scapulae during a manna, I thought protraction was the way to go for the reasons Bipocni mentioned along with the fact that victorians are performed with protraction. But it would make sense because the shoulder angle is so different between the victorian and the manna. I'll apply this to my v-sit and manna training! 

 

You are actually supposed to retract in the victorian as well just like in a FL.

In my memory of what a victorian looks like I recalled that the body shape was much like a hollow body hold. Looking at this picture: http://www.masfuertequeelhierro.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/victorian.jpg I realize that my perception of that was based on the pike of his hips, and that in fact his shoulders ARE retracted! Thanks for pointing that out, I would not have normally noticed that. 

You do not fully retract in a front lever.  If your shoulder blades are retracted, how are you supposed to use the lats to support the front lever?

 

Nor are you fully protracted.  It feels more llke the shoulder blades are "widening" to create a shelf of muscle made up of the shoulder girdle and the lats to support the torso.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

You do not fully retract in a front lever. If your shoulder blades are retracted, how are you supposed to use the lats to support the front lever?

Nor are you fully protracted. It feels more llke the shoulder blades are "widening" to create a shelf of muscle made up of the shoulder girdle and the lats to support the torso.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

is this where the cue of "pulling apart" comes from? is this what you are describing?

No.  

 

Pulling apart refers to some people's preference for pulling the hands slightly apart during FL.  However I know of no gymnasts who use this particular cue.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Daniel Burnham said:

Btw here is a photos of me in may screwing around. I have gotten avoid deal stronger since then. I did not train v-sit much directly mind you.image.jpg

There is a great deal of difference between this form and the manna. One being shoulder position. Which is why I say it is easy to get v-sit and the reason I think most stall out in manna progress. They don't understand the difference.

Your physique in this picture doesn't resemble your physique in your profile picture. Is it safe to say that this picture was taken quite some time before?

SuperBru said:

Your physique in this picture doesn't resemble your physique in your profile picture. Is it safe to say that this picture was taken quite some time before?

No the vsit picture is actually more recent. May I think. The other was probably January. I am actually more muscular in the second but the shirt covers it up.

I never said full retraction though. I remembered that you said it was impossible to fully retract in a FL. Oh and I also never used the "pulling apart" cue to achieve my first FL. I've began to use it after I learned about it and I can't really say if it helps or not. I didn't feel any stronger when doing it, but it probably did help slightly.

 

A bit off topic, but do you know of any gymnasts that use the "squeezing/hugging" the floor cue for the planche? I use that cue and it does help make me a bit stronger and more stable in the planche and planche push-ups and seems to help with protraction too.

Coach Sommer said:

No.

Pulling apart refers to some people's preference for pulling the hands slightly apart during FL. However I know of no gymnasts who use this particular cue.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

hmm, overthinking. i'll cross that bridge when it comes, F1 in the meantime. thanks for the clarification, Coach

I believe that the "widening" of the shoulder blades Coach is talking about is actually retracting to where they are in a neutral position halfway between full protraction and full retraction because that is where they will be the widest. Please correct me if I'm wrong Coach.

it's not easy to explain what is the real scapulas position..the best opportunity i got to understand it was at the seminar, both planche and front lever position (about arms, shoulders, scapulas)..they are easier to be learned by direct contact with Coach who corrects your position.

B1214N said:

I believe that the "widening" of the shoulder blades Coach is talking about is actually retracting to where they are in a neutral position halfway between full protraction and full retraction because that is where they will be the widest. Please correct me if I'm wrong Coach.

I find that this ends up being a few things, but more than anything else it is a combination of feeling serratus anterior and teres major working. Teres major is the (potentially very) largemuscle that is kind of like a mini-lattisimus dorsi. It goes from the lateral border of the inferior angle (the outside of the bottom corner) to the upper arm, attaching right next to the lats. It contributes a huge amount to back and shoulder width, and when it flexes it literally feels like your scapulae are getting bigger and wider.

 

Something that we all have to accept, if we want to succeed with gymnastic strength, is that one of the keys to this kind of thing is the ability to feel what your body is using, and to fine-tune the tension in all of your muscles to what you need. It's simpler than it sounds, but takes a lot of practice.

 

None of these words will help you make forward progress in that journey, only your own practice can do that... but maybe they will help you define your starting point.

I did feel my scapulae widen when I tried to retract in the FL though, but you're probably right that it is a few things and the teres major was flexing to give that "widening".

Joshua Naterman said:

I find that this ends up being a few things, but more than anything else it is a combination of feeling serratus anterior and teres major working. Teres major is the (potentially very) largemuscle that is kind of like a mini-lattisimus dorsi. It goes from the lateral border of the inferior angle (the outside of the bottom corner) to the upper arm, attaching right next to the lats. It contributes a huge amount to back and shoulder width, and when it flexes it literally feels like your scapulae are getting bigger and wider.

 

Something that we all have to accept, if we want to succeed with gymnastic strength, is that one of the keys to this kind of thing is the ability to feel what your body is using, and to fine-tune the tension in all of your muscles to what you need. It's simpler than it sounds, but takes a lot of practice.

 

None of these words will help you make forward progress in that journey, only your own practice can do that... but maybe they will help you define your starting point.

that's interesting. when i tried front supports and back supports going full retraction makes me unable to perform the hold at all. if i'm at an inbetween it's possible for a while and then protraction is of course the easiest. 

 

so really what i've been observing in the GB ring strength videos with the guys doing the back and front levers are essentially shoulders not allowed to roll forward and held neutral?