Long Static Holds Rationale

To all the physiology geeks out there:

   I'm trying to get a physiological rationale as to why doing long static holds is important as foundational work for more high tension skills. For exampe, why is it important to be able to do 5 rounds of 1min. hollow rocks before starting to train for the front lever? As a coach and trainee, i know the value in the statement "just shut up and do what coach says", which i will continue to do. However, for the sake of coaching others and for my own understanding as to the "why" behind the method-of-madness, i'd like to see if anyone on the forum has thoughts as to the importance of doing it this way.

Coach Sommer mentioned something about building capillary density with longer holds--which seems to make sense--as well as improve work capacity. However, if work capacity is the argument, why not just do 10 sets of 30 second hollow rocks or 20 sets of 15 second hollow rocks? Since most gymnastic holds are not held for longer than a few seconds, why hold for exponentially longer amounts of time on the front end? Hopefully this will stir some good discussion. Look forward to any thoughts on this.

  Cheers,

  Charlie

Good idea for a discussion.

I will add fuel to the fire by pointing out that 60s is a comparatively short duration for a low intensity hold.  Yes, I realize that at your level it currently feels like an eternity to YOU, however the GST reality is that these are very simple exercises.  And for building a foundation, performing higher volume with these elements is very effective.  

As mentioned previously, the 5x60s template is quite moderate as the following GST examples will show:

- Vitali Scherbo (1992 6x Olympic Gold Medalist) as a young athlete was required to hold an elevated plank for 10 MINUTES in a single set.

- When Allan's group was young they regularly did ag walks for 15 MINUTES.  Continuously.  Any resting and the group's ag walk time started over.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Good idea for a discussion.

 

I will add fuel to the fire by pointing out that 60s is a comparatively short duration for a low intensity hold.  Yes, I realize that at your level it currently feels like an eternity to YOU, however the GST reality is that these are very simple exercises.  And for building a foundation, performing higher volume with these elements is very effective.  

 

As mentioned previously, the 5x60s template is quite moderate as the following GST examples will show:

- Vitali Scherbo (1992 6x Olympic Gold Medalist) as a young athlete was required to hold an elevated plank for 10 MINUTES in a single set.

 

- When Allan's group was young they regularly did ag walks for 15 MINUTES.  Continuously.  Any resting and the group's ag walk time started over.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

 

Why do you not expect this from your adult GST students, at least in the Foundation program? Is it more a case of diminishing returns, or diminishing attention spans ?

Not a physiology geek, so this is just my opinion.

Part of the reason is to reinforce proper shapes I think.

Planks build that nice protracted shape, hollows will build the gymnastics hollow position, arch hold will build stubborn determination. One learns body shapes by doing them a lot. Other exercises with longer set duration like 5x60r or 5x15r have therapeutic effect in awakening muscles, prepping joints and enforcing proper movement patterns, like pushups, rows and deck squats.

And the foundation series is endurance only in the early stages. Later exercises are usually 5x5.

Charm said:

Why do you not expect this from your adult GST students, at least in the Foundation program? Is it more a case of diminishing returns, or diminishing attention spans ?

ABH for 10 minutes. Now that's a nasty idea...

RTO 5x60 anyone that can do that with  5 sets of 3 other exercises is pretty strong. Coach what would ag walks be.

dritar said:

ABH for 10 minutes. Now that's a nasty idea...

You'd have a backside like two coconuts though.

First let me say that 15 minutes of ag walks would be hell.

Now adding to the discussion and maybe even answering charm's questions:

These long holds are necessary for several reasons.  The first is that we need to find these positions comfortable and be able to go in and out of them at any time.  If you notice, these "prerequisites" as we used to call them are often the same shapes held in later positions. Like the hollow body that is  held just about every rings strength position.  The idea of increasing capillary density is just one aspect of improving the metabolic conditioning of the muscles.  Others are increased mitochondria and maybe even larger energy stores.

Now these things are especially important when you are doing dynamic movements and is probably one of the reasons coach emphasizes it with his own athletes.  One easy example is a tap swing on the high bar.  You have to hold a hollow and then arch suddenly and then return to hollow.  This needs to be completely nailed down.  The athlete should be able to do this in his sleep and long hold times emphasize this.

So in short getting these positions nailed down allow you to keep body shapes later on and use them for harder movments whether they are strength or dynamic.

Charm said:

Why do you not expect this from your adult GST students, at least in the Foundation program? Is it more a case of diminishing returns, or diminishing attention spans ?

Why in the world would I do that?    

You guys already continually moan and groan about the 60s!!!  

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

Why in the world would I do that?    

 

You guys already continually moan and groan about the 60s!!!  

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Well.... we might not once we compared it to 5-10 minutes

Maybe this is beyond the scope of this discussion, but is (long-term) developing these basic holds to a significant length of time a productive secondary focus for the Foundation pursuer?

m6shifter said:

RTO 5x60 anyone that can do that with  5 sets of 3 other exercises is pretty strong. Coach what would ag walks be.

I had to look up 'ag walks' on google and found the GB youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVzjUhRhtpA  - Wheeee they look fun! Imagine the whole class doing it  - it'll be like dodgem cars 

thanks latestarter@46  is that a frisbee in the video

m6shifter said:

thanks latestarter@46  is that a frisbee in the video

yep. on the carpeted sections and polished concrete in my house, a piece of cardboard slides just as fine

Great topic.  I've wondered this as well, and I had a similar question on Hawaiian squats.  Seems to me that bending the opposing leg has little effect on the actual progression to the straight leg SLS and that a straight leg box squat or something would be just as good at achieving the actual progression at this stage.  But I also know that Coach has a reason for everything in the program, so I was curious as to the "why" behind this movement as well.

The arch stuff confused me a little in that after the rocks, there are no more arch positions in the side lever progressions.  So I didn't understand why they'd be a necessity for the SL progression itself.  However, I guess that's the difference in a "PE" and an "SE" -  some stuff is thrown in there to lay general purpose foundation work for GST as a whole, while other stuff is essential to the specific progression.  

I'm an engineer by trade, so while I do "just do it 'cause Coach says", I can't help but wanna know the "why" behind why I'm doing it as well.  Maybe down the line after F3 and F4 get out it wouldn't hurt to add a little of this stuff in the material.  Just my thoughts.  Loving the series though - never thought I'd go 5 months without touching a weight and love it!

mm356 said:

Great topic.  I've wondered this as well, and I had a similar question on Hawaiian squats.  Seems to me that bending the opposing leg has little effect on the actual progression to the straight leg SLS and that a straight leg box squat or something would be just as good at achieving the actual progression at this stage.  But I also know that Coach has a reason for everything in the program, so I was curious as to the "why" behind this movement as well.

 

The arch stuff confused me a little in that after the rocks, there are no more arch positions in the side lever progressions.  So I didn't understand why they'd be a necessity for the SL progression itself.  However, I guess that's the difference in a "PE" and an "SE" -  some stuff is thrown in there to lay general purpose foundation work for GST as a whole, while other stuff is essential to the specific progression.  

 

I'm an engineer by trade, so while I do "just do it 'cause Coach says", I can't help but wanna know the "why" behind why I'm doing it as well.  Maybe down the line after F3 and F4 get out it wouldn't hurt to add a little of this stuff in the material.  Just my thoughts.  Loving the series though - never thought I'd go 5 months without touching a weight and love it!

There are more difficult arching and other spinal exercises later on, but those first two should be a part of your warm up for a long time. Like, a looong time. 

There are many instances in which something like the hawaiian squat not only serves as a partial ROM SLS, but also serves as a glute medius and minimus mobilization/stretch, and also works on combining multiple actions on different body parts at the same time. This helps prepare your brain for much more difficult things down the road... There also points where progression trees like the FL track will turn into more pulling work and less direct ab work, but by this point you'll be doing so much direct abdominal work in other areas that you won't lose anything (in addition to your set of hollow rocks that should always be in your warm up once you master them )

We have to learn to roll over on our stomachs and get on hands and knees before we can crawl, much less walk or jog, and to be perfectly honest we can't explain what some of this stuff is for specifically, because it would involve explaining a large portion of later products to an unreasonable extent.

The short version is that you are being prepared for bridges, swings, kips, and all kinds of other things without you realizing it. That is, of course, assuming that you are following the program as prescribed. If you're doing your own thing, there are obviously no guarantees that you are going to get all of these benefits.

Coach Sommer said:

- 60s is a comparatively short duration for a low intensity hold. 

- Vitali Scherbo as a young athlete was required to hold an elevated plank for 10 MINUTES in a single set.

- When Allan's group was young they regularly did ag walks for 15 MINUTES. 

 

Can they do this as a result of training these movements for that amount of time?

Or, is it more that they have become proficient (10-30s) at greater-resistance holds, and the strength gains means they can hold these easier exercises for longer? (Similar concept to increasing bench press 1RM increases push-up rep capacity, or increasing squat 1RM increases middle-distance running pace.)

Daniel’s explanation of capillary density/mitochondria activity makes sense to me (going from a middle-distance running physiology background). It’s the same reason why runners, even 800m athletes, spend most of their career increasing their speed by running close to marathon pace. Short-time:high-intensity contraction builds the capacity of the muscle pathways that are already there, and long-time:low-intensity contraction increases the number of pathways, which can then be developed. To use an analogy: it’s like building a road system for drivers to get from one place to another. Short-time contractions increase the lanes on the roads that you already have, and long-time contractions add new roads to the route. Over a career, using both techniques builds capacity from two different angles, and creates a synergistic increase of capacity that is greater than the sum of its’ parts.

I'm gonna keep that analogy in mind... currently repeating a few microcycles of Week 10/11 volumes. 

dritar said:

ABH for 10 minutes. Now that's a nasty idea...

... It's not even funny

dritar said:

ABH for 10 minutes. Now that's a nasty idea...

F3&4 is in-development... 

Joshua Naterman said:

There are more difficult arching and other spinal exercises later on, but those first two should be a part of your warm up for a long time. Like, a looong time. 

 

There are many instances in which something like the hawaiian squat not only serves as a partial ROM SLS, but also serves as a glute medius and minimus mobilization/stretch, and also works on combining multiple actions on different body parts at the same time. This helps prepare your brain for much more difficult things down the road... There also points where progression trees like the FL track will turn into more pulling work and less direct ab work, but by this point you'll be doing so much direct abdominal work in other areas that you won't lose anything (in addition to your set of hollow rocks that should always be in your warm up once you master them )

 

We have to learn to roll over on our stomachs and get on hands and knees before we can crawl, much less walk or jog, and to be perfectly honest we can't explain what some of this stuff is for specifically, because it would involve explaining a large portion of later products to an unreasonable extent.

 

The short version is that you are being prepared for bridges, swings, kips, and all kinds of other things without you realizing it. That is, of course, assuming that you are following the program as prescribed. If you're doing your own thing, there are obviously no guarantees that you are going to get all of these benefits.

Your explanation works great for me.  You guys should literally just put this up in the front of the materials to cover the basics of this kind of stuff.  I don't need all the nitty gritty physio details, but it is nice to hear "you'll need this later" even if it doesn't appear to directly apply to the progression at hand.  Due to my previous exposure to other BW materials and progressions before F1, I sometimes look at F1 as solely progressions to the 7 goal exercises.  But it is best to look at the big picture and view F1 as literally the overall "foundation" work that it is supposed to be.  Your explanation helps me to do that and keep the post-Foundation work in view.  Yeah, it'll take a few years to complete F1-F4, but as hard as it is to visualize there WILL be something after that!

I pretty much figured the Hawaiian squat was just rolling in some extra mobility work that is needed more down the line as opposed to directly for the SLS, but it's still good to hear it from the source. 

mm356 said:

(...) it is best to look at the big picture and view F1 as literally the overall "foundation" work that it is supposed to be. (...)

You underline a very important point mm356

It is kinda interesting that I am going to spend a few years sweating, fighting through Foundation series and at the end I am going to know that many people are  warming up with exercises that are my max performance, lol

Gymnasts sure are amazing !

If we rounded up many athletes from different sports then a gymnast could do nearly fine in every other sport but there is no way in hell that others would be able to complete a gymnastics routine - No offense to other sports but these are just my thoughts.

FredInChina said:

You underline a very important point mm356

The sad part is that it should be obvious.  I mean, it's named "Foundation 1" for Pete's sake!

Looking back I realize that I did have the big picture foundation view in months 1-2.  But after making progress and moving up the progression ladder I started focusing more on the individual steps to progression and lost sight of the overall "laying the groundwork" picture.  I didn't skip anything, but I did start thinking more of "why am I doing this to get there?".  Now I just know that "there" has a bigger connotation than I was giving credit for.

mm356 said:

(...) it should be obvious. (...)

Yet, for some reasons, it bears highlighting, underlining & repeating

I noticed somewhere ( I think it was the GB facebook page actually...) that there was a post about a gymnast doing a wall handstand for 30 minutes for the purpose of conditionning. I was kind of wondering if doing this sort of conditionning with static holds would yield any benefit as well. Say training a back lever for maximum hold so you can eventually hold for minutes at a time.

I've been kinda thinking of doing these personal challenges to myself to make personal best records of progressions I've already mastered. Like how many push ups I can do in a row, or things like that. Almost along the same line as the King of the Forums, but solely for me. So that I can come back at a later time and try to beat my own records. Doing these types of challenges on deload weeks or something so it doesn't interfere with my normal training. Just something to add a bit of fun to training.

Anyway, I'm rambling...So would doing these "challenges" even be worth it? Like building a 5 minute back lever or whatever for anything other than bragging rights?

I would not attempt that long of time for strength holds that are not low intensity.