Please briefly look over my idea for combining interval training with steady state training !

Hi guys,

I've decided to finally rev up my cardiovascular endurance as it has been my weakest point for quite a bit. 

First of all, the main reference for my questions:

Quote Source

To sum up what I do on a regular basis: F7 3x/week, HS1 2x/week, 4-5 hours of martial arts practice.

My martial arts training is currently primarily composed of careful training of which the vast majority is not cardiovascularly taxing. 

My end goal:

1. Have a primarily cardiovascular training day that includes a combination of interval training and steady state training with only light martial arts training.

What I intend to do:

1. Start the day with thorough warm up (bunch of crawls, joint circles, limb swings)
2. 10-15 minutes of full body soft tissue work with lacrosse ball/foam roller
3. ~30 minutes of light martial arts practice
4. 20 minutes of interval training--probably sprint/walk (30 seconds on, 90 seconds rest -- this is 20 rounds)
5. Followed by 30-45 minutes of running at HR about 120 BPM
6. Stretching (possibly)

Anything I'm missing? Is this an acceptable way of combining the two types of training?

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Just so you know, I literally only eat rice, tons and tons vegetables, red meat/fish, nuts, and protein powder. I think I'm basically all set with my nutrition outside of adjusting it to fit my daily energy expenditure. Oh yeah, and I drink TONS of water.

20 x 30s sprints is A LOT of half assed sprinting........... 20 x 200m = 4Km sprint

If you are going to sprint, do it right.

First warm up with 20 min slow jog, 15 min dynamic stretching, mobility and a progression of plyometrics from light to more intense

Then do 8 x 8 to 15 seconds real sprint with 3-4 min rest (walk) in between - 10 min cool down, deep stretch, 20 min very slow jog & done!

I would place the steady state cardio another time.

If you want to increase aerobic capacity, do fartlek instead.

FredInChina said:

20 x 30s sprints is A LOT of half assed sprinting........... 20 x 200m = 4Km sprint

If you are going to sprint, do it right.

First warm up with 20 min slow jog, 15 min dynamic stretching, mobility and a progression of plyometrics from light to more intense

Then do 8 x 8 to 15 seconds real sprint with 3-4 min rest (walk) in between - 10 min cool down, deep stretch, 20 min very slow jog & done!

 

I would place the steady state cardio another time.

If you want to increase aerobic capacity, do fartlek instead.

Good point, Fred! Didn't realize how far that would be.

Your sprint protocol sounds good, but why would you add the 20 min slow jog after the stretching?

The steady state cardio @ about 120-140 bpm is mainly for my heart/lung health. If it gets too intense I think it will become detrimental to the rest of my training. Isn't fartlek just irregular interval training for a bit longer stretch of time? What's the benefit of doing that instead of the steady state cardio if I'm already doing interval training?

Warning/Disclaimer: Serious sorcerer's apprentice brew here; I am not even sure I understand what Patrick wants to accomplish, let alone be able to help him get there...

The very slow jog is to pump blood through the muscles that just worked hard and "evacuate" metabolism by-products - this is supposed to limit the extent of the DOMS, facilitate recovery, etc... (Frankly, you'll have to run that against the latest practices and knowledge, but we used to do that after a heavy sprint session in the '80es..................... yes, I know............ )

Re. Fartlek.......... that is a great question... I don't know... Here is what I can say (use a large pinch of salt):

- Moderate fartlek targets the aerobic system whereas your other intervals target the anaerobic. (if you noticed, above I changed your anaerobics "intervals" for a vanilla sprint session... that may target something entirely different than what you intended)

- You probably only need 20 min of Fartlek to get similar benefits as 45 min LSD (there may be a price to pay for the swap though)

- LSD is so boring that anything that will keep you coming back to the track can only be beneficial...

But once again, run that with someone that knows better.......

[edit:] Scratch all that post and most of the previous one: The only thing I am certain of is that 20x30s of sprints is too bloody much! The rest is at best anecdotal, but mostly speculation.

Get a good coach!

The very slow jog is to pump blood through the muscles that just worked hard and "evacuate" metabolism by-products - this is supposed to limit the extent of the DOMS, facilitate recovery, etc... (Frankly, you'll have to run that against the latest practices and knowledge, but we used to do that after a heavy sprint session in the '80es..................... yes, I know............  )

Sounds legit... LOL 

 

Re. Fartlek.......... that is a great question... I don't know... Here is what I can say (use a large pinch of salt):

- Moderate fartlek targets the aerobic system whereas your other intervals target the anaerobic. (if you noticed, above I changed your anaerobics "intervals" for a vanilla sprint session... that may target something entirely different than what you intended)

- You probably only need 20 min of Fartlek to get similar benefits as 45 min LSD (there may be a price to pay for the swap though)

- LSD is so boring that anything that will keep you coming back to the track can only be beneficial...

But once again, run that with someone that knows better....... 

LSD is boring but I have language MP3's to study and listen to while doing it, so I actually don't mind at all. Besides, 30-40 minutes of LSD a week isn't much. I'd like to be able to run a mile 5 minutes or fewer. It's obviously not even on my list of priorities but it's something I'm interested in.

Fartlek would end up basically being something extremely similar to the preset interval training for me, so if I was going to fartlek instead of steady state cardio, I'd just do the interval training session twice a week... Maybe I'll just do a much more drawn out version of fartlek. Something like 30-40 minutes of LSD with 15 second sprints sprinkled in every 7-10 minutes. I don't want two high intensity interval sessions a week since I already have my Foundation/Handstand1/practice to do, but if one high intensity and one low intensity should be doable.

Thanks Fred 

1600m in 5 min is 400m in  1'15" --> warm up and go test yourself on a 400m; you'll have a pretty good idea of where you are at on that goal.

Then it is a matter of pacing, and doing it 3 more times...................

You can find good training programs online to get you there (there are good plans for 2 miles too because it is high school & military standard fitness test)

What languages are you learning Patrick?

FredInChina said:

The very slow jog is to pump blood through the muscles that just worked hard and "evacuate" metabolism by-products - this is supposed to limit the extent of the DOMS, facilitate recovery, etc... (Frankly, you'll have to run that against the latest practices and knowledge)

Yup definitely still the case.   Runners of today, even 800m, still spend most of their careers “base training†for this very reason. The low-intensity aerobic state increases aerobic enzymes (the things that uptake oxygen) and also cleans out the metabolic by-products from anaerobic training (“active recoveryâ€). The aim is to keep hemoglobin in balance and avoid systemic acidosis.

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Patrick, I’ll share what I do if it helps. I love middle-distance running almost as much as gymnastics.

I’m currently on a pretty aggressive weight-loss plan.

- I do F1&H1 every day Mon-Sat (rotate 4 exercises per day, every other day).

- I do a HIIT session Mon, Wed & Fri of 12 x 15s all-out sprint, with 40s walking between sets. I also jog a 5-minute warm-up and a 5-minute cool-down before and after. The whole session takes 21 minutes.

- On Tues & Thurs I run for 30 mins a little below threshold. On Sat & Sun I jog for 45 mins at a comfortable pace.

Once I’m at ideal weight I’ll replace the 15s HIIT sprints with hills, tempo runs and slower/longer intervals throughout the week. I’ll still have the jogs in between those “work sessions†on Tues & Thurs to keep me fresh and in balance. This will be like a long-term off-season, letting me gradually increase my capacity from all angles.

I start my day with the run and move straight into the gymnastic exercises. Everything is done by mid-morning.

Cool Running have some awesome training programs based on the training pyramid (aerobic -> glycolytic -> alactic) in 12 week cycles. Lots of templates to scale to your distance of interest and level of fitness.

FredInChina said:

1600m in 5 min is 400m in  1'15" --> warm up and go test yourself on a 400m; you'll have a pretty good idea of where you are at on that goal.

Then it is a matter of pacing, and doing it 3 more times...................

You can find good training programs online to get you there (there are good plans for 2 miles too because it is high school & military standard fitness test)

Thanks for the assistance, Fred! I think that I will find out how fast I can run without breaking 140 bpm and then run that speed for 20-30 minutes once a week. That combined with my kata practice and the interval training should be a huge improvement from what I'm doing now. No need to get too specific, although the combination of interval training and steady state training is common to almost all the fast (2) mile training routines I found when I looked it up. Every once in a while on my interval day I will try timing a mile or two and see how it's going. Like I said, it's not a priority at all - just something I'm interested in as a general fitness marker.

 

 

What languages are you learning Patrick? 

I already speak a bit of Spanish and Japanese (Spanish from living in the south and Japanese from karate inspired interests in my youth), and currently working on German and Korean. I'm learning Russian and Chinese (Mandarin) on the side, but not concentrating too hard on them. German, Korean, and Chinese are pretty easy but I'm trying to avoid getting them mixed up so I'm taking it slowly. What can I say, I love languages! 

You live in China, right? Have you learned any of Mandarin or Cantonese?

Thanks for your input, wheezer. 

wheezer said:

Patrick, I’ll share what I do if it helps. I love middle-distance running almost as much as gymnastics.

 

I’m currently on a pretty aggressive weight-loss plan.

- I do F1&H1 every day Mon-Sat (rotate 4 exercises per day, every other day).

- I do a HIIT session Mon, Wed & Fri of 12 x 15s all-out sprint, with 40s walking between sets. I also jog a 5-minute warm-up and a 5-minute cool-down before and after. The whole session takes 21 minutes.

- On Tues & Thurs I run for 30 mins a little below threshold. On Sat & Sun I jog for 45 mins at a comfortable pace.

That sounds pretty intense. How's it going so far?

 

 

Cool Running have some awesome training programs based on the training pyramid (aerobic -> glycolytic -> alactic) in 12 week cycles. Lots of templates to scale to your distance of interest and level of fitness.

The website looks great! I'll check out the 5k plan. 

Patrick Smith said:

That sounds pretty intense. How's it going so far?

Really good. I've been doing it about eight weeks.

The HIIT sessions for me are all about using up glycogen. The 15s intervals are short enough, and 40s recovery long enough, to drain my legs without the lactic acid system kicking in. So I don't really go into acidosis over the week.

But if I do, I can just slow down my four jog sessions for pure aerobic recovery. For example, last week I went into a real lactic acidy week with F1, really burnt out by body, and ran 60-80s/mile slower than usual. The jogging helped me recover, and this week I had a much easier time with the F1 volume and had the energy to run faster again.

So the jog sessions Tues/Thurs/Sat/Sun are a good buffer that I can use for tempo or recovery depending on how I'm feeling.

That is really useful to know, wheezer. I feel like my body gets very "lactic acidy" some weeks. Maybe including a jog or two will help that. Thanks for sharing that.

And how's your body recomp going?

#takingnotes

KeilaniG said:

#takingnotes

You and your hashtags, Keilani... 

no hate here, compadre, just learning from those who learn from the best

Lactic acid is good for you. This myth has been debunked awhile ago, and by reputable sources.

Also, Patrick, a sub 5 mile is a large goal. It will take at 5-6 days of running a week. By only doing HIIT or whatever that stuff is, there is no way you will get it. Build a base and get comfortable doing 30+ miles per week of just aerobic running. Then add in workouts. One run should be a longer 60-90 mins. Between each workout should be a day of EASY running. Workout examples: 6-8x400 with 1-2 mins rest, 3-5x1k with 2-3 mins rest, 8x300m with 50m walk, 50m jog.

Sources: Easy sub 5 miler (myself)

If interested in getting the most out of your training...

I can recommend a book called Healthy, Intelligent Training very highly.

Patrick Smith said:

I feel like my body gets very "lactic acidy" some weeks. Maybe including a jog or two will help that.

Depending on your overall workload, you may need three days or even four to keep you fresh. Every-other-day of easy pace migh be necessary if you train a lot. I suggest experiment and see how you go.

Patrick Smith said:

And how's your body recomp going?

Amazing! Thanks for asking. Averaging 2lb loss a week at the moment, feel like I'm in a new body every week!

I started at 205lb, currently at 187lb, going down to ideal at 155lb (based on i-DXA scan). It's a huge recomp. I'm having a blast seeing my running pace and relative strength improve every week, as I carry less and less.

Awarenesss said:

Lactic acid is good for you. This myth has been debunked awhile ago, and by reputable sources.

 

What myth?

Awarenesss said:

Also, Patrick, a sub 5 mile is a large goal. It will take at 5-6 days of running a week. By only doing HIIT or whatever that stuff is, there is no way you will get it. Build a base and get comfortable doing 30+ miles per week of just aerobic running. Then add in workouts. One run should be a longer 60-90 mins. Between each workout should be a day of EASY running. Workout examples: 6-8x400 with 1-2 mins rest, 3-5x1k with 2-3 mins rest, 8x300m with 50m walk, 50m jog.

 

^ this.

KeilaniG said:

no hate here, compadre, just learning from those who learn from the best

Awarenesss said:

Lactic acid is good for you. This myth has been debunked awhile ago, and by reputable sources.

 

Also, Patrick, a sub 5 mile is a large goal. It will take at 5-6 days of running a week. By only doing HIIT or whatever that stuff is, there is no way you will get it. Build a base and get comfortable doing 30+ miles per week of just aerobic running. Then add in workouts. One run should be a longer 60-90 mins. Between each workout should be a day of EASY running. Workout examples: 6-8x400 with 1-2 mins rest, 3-5x1k with 2-3 mins rest, 8x300m with 50m walk, 50m jog.

 

Sources: Easy sub 5 miler (myself)

Thanks for the advice, Awarenesss. A 5 minute mile is not at all high on my list of priorities, so I don't intend to start running THAT much. In my case, the running is simply to help me increase my stamina and conditioning.

wheezer said:

Amazing! Thanks for asking. Averaging 2lb loss a week at the moment, feel like I'm in a new body every week!

I started at 205lb, currently at 187lb, going down to ideal at 155lb (based on i-DXA scan). It's a huge recomp. I'm having a blast seeing my running pace and relative strength improve every week, as I carry less and less.

That's really great progress, wheezer!   Are you maintaining your strength/muscle mass during this swift recomp?

Thanks for the book recommendation.

Patrick Smith said:

That's really great progress, wheezer!   Are you maintaining your strength/muscle mass during this swift recomp?

Thanks Pat!! B)

No noticeable loss of lean mass. Visually, I think I've actually gained quite a bit of lean around the deltoids, back, abdominal wall and forearms. (Mainly the places I didn't develop through conventional weight-training before F1.) But, I'm not sure if what I am seeing is actual muscle growth, or fat loss giving the illusion of more muscle.

I'm also using some general IF principles with my eating. On most days, I eat 60-70% of my calories in a four-hour window about two-thirds into my day. A few weight trainers have reported fat loss as well as impressive lean gains doing this. The science is a mystery to me but I find this feels the best.

I won't know for sure about lean mass changes without a follow-up i-DXA. But I'm in no hurry, probably won't do that for another 3 months at least.

I've really dropped the bodybuilding focus on mass and adopted the gymnast focus on function. I'm trusting my body with a "use it or lose it" mentality. As long as I continue to be more capable at F7 week after week, I am happy. My muscle mass was developed through repetitive weight-training, and am happy with a bit of muscle loss as it will probably be related to a movement/function I am no longer training. In that case, it's mass I no longer use, and am happy to drop that deadweight.

But F7 is giving my whole body such a quality rogering, I'd be surprised if overall atrophy was greater than hypertrophy!

Update: I burst out of bed this morning and had by far the best run/foundation training session I've had in about six weeks. I was shocked. I wondered why, before I remembered that yesterday I felt sluggish and jogged 70-80s/mile slower than usual. That's the difference. I've been so excited about setting PBs from weightloss that I've been overtraining my steady runs and didn't know it.

I'm now doing short HIITs 3x/week and slow easy jogs 4x/week.

Man, you have to watch out if you're the highly motivated type. Sometimes it pays to back off a bit. 

I forgot to ask you, what kind of caloric deficit are you running?

By the way, did my first 30 minute jog yesterday. It was way harder than I thought it was going to be. This is going to be a slow journey 

wheezer said:

Update: I burst out of bed this morning and had by far the best run/foundation training session I've had in about six weeks. I was shocked. I wondered why, before I remembered that yesterday I felt sluggish and jogged 70-80s/mile slower than usual. That's the difference. I've been so excited about setting PBs from weightloss that I've been overtraining my steady runs and didn't know it.

 

I'm now doing short HIITs 3x/week and slow easy jogs 4x/week.

Haha yup definitely true!

Deficit averages out at 400cal/day. I eat higher cals on the weekend (social) but also spend more time running.

Your jogging endurance will probably come real quick. I remember the first time I jogged indefinitely without tiring out or flaring up. Amazing feeling!

Yeah, I can imagine. Really looking forward to it!