Foundation Series: Rest periods?

Hello!

I just started the foundation series today and I was surprised by my deficiencies

I have a question about resting periods between SE/PE sets: Are we supposed to immediately do the mobility drills after each set and then immediately do another set, or are we permitted resting periods inbetween sets?

Thank you,

AP

Move directly between IM and PE/SE.

A couple minutes break between exercises (as in, FL and sPL) is pretty much the norm. For me this means completing my 2-3 warmup sets in no particular hurry.

Cyberhat said:

Hello!

 

I just started the foundation series today and I was surprised by my deficiencies

 

I have a question about resting periods between SE/PE sets: Are we supposed to immediately do the mobility drills after each set and then immediately do another set, or are we permitted resting periods inbetween sets?

 

 

Thank you,

 

AP

No rest between mobility and PE or SE elements. If needed, you can re-apply chalk or shake out your limbs, but this shouldn't amount to more than a few seconds. 

It is actually no rest for mastery, and this is how you should also practice; however, if you are just starting out, you may need to take a few breaths in between, and that is okay too.

It should be minimal rest from PE to iM and back to PE again. For me, it's usually just as much time as I need to reposition myself for the exercise, and (if applicable) to reset my timer and press Start again.

That said, if I feel like I can't do the next set without a bit of rest, but would succeed given half to a full minute to catch my breath, then I mark this down in my exercise book as 'failed', take my extra breathing time, and go ahead and do the set. I will still be getting the work done, but I won't advance yet because I failed to do the prescribed sets and reps with the prescribed minimal rest.

(And if I needed _lots_ of rest between _every_ set, not just for the last one, then I'd question whether I've let my ego take me too far along in the progressions again. It happens sometimes. Not so often anymore, though. )

i can understand that if you can use the IM as rest probably the movement you are training is not so hard for you but when you are performing the strength sets, for submaximal effort like 2-5 reps (as the 5x5 template) why i don't have to use more rest as i usually do in other movements as deadlift, benchpress etc?

i cite one research of 2009, published on pubmed. probably you do not have the access to springer (i have it due to accords with my universoty)..here there is the abstract

"Strength training has become one of the most popular physical activities for increasing characteristics such as absolute muscular strength, endurance, hypertrophy and muscular power. For efficient, safe and effective training, it is of utmost importance to understand the interaction among training variables, which might include the intensity, number of sets, rest interval between sets, exercise modality and velocity of muscle action. Research has indicated that the rest interval between sets is an important variable that affects both acute responses and chronic adaptations to resistance exercise programmes. The purpose of this review is to analyse and discuss the rest interval between sets for targeting specific training outcomes (e.g. absolute muscular strength, endurance, hypertrophy and muscular power). The Scielo, Science Citation Index, National Library of Medicine, MEDLINE, Scopus, Sport Discus and CINAHL databases were used to locate previous original scientific investigations. The 35 studies reviewed examined both acute responses and chronic adaptations, with rest interval length as the experimental variable. In terms of acute responses, a key finding was that when training with loads between 50% and 90% of one repetition maximum, 3–5 minutes’ rest between sets allowed for greater repetitions over multiple sets. Furthermore, in terms of chronic adaptations, resting 3–5 minutes between sets produced greater increases in absolute strength, due to higher intensities and volumes of training. Similarly, higher levels of muscular power were demonstrated over multiple sets with 3 or 5 minutes versus 1 minute of rest between sets. Conversely, some experiments have demonstrated that when testing maximal strength, 1-minute rest intervals might be sufficient between repeated attempts; however, from a psychological and physiological standpoint, the inclusion of 3- to 5-minute rest intervals might be safer and more reliable. When the training goal is muscular hypertrophy, the combination of moderate-intensity sets with short rest intervals of 30–60 seconds might be most effective due to greater acute levels of growth hormone during such workouts. Finally, the research on rest interval length in relation to chronic muscular endurance adaptations is less clear. Training with short rest intervals (e.g. 20 seconds to 1 minute) resulted in higher repetition velocities during repeated submaximal muscle actions and also greater total torque during a high-intensity cycle test. Both of these findings indirectly demonstrated the benefits of utilizing short rest intervals for gains in muscular endurance. In summary, the rest interval between sets is an important variable that should receive more attention in resistance exercise prescription. When prescribed appropriately with other important prescriptive variables (i.e. volume and intensity), the amount of rest between sets can influence the efficiency, safety and ultimate effectiveness of a strength training programs"

so from my POV i can say that if i want to test my actual strength for a mastery template i have to do all the sets with only the IM in between, but in the process i'm doing to build up the strength why low rest may be the best choice?

The training is to build both strength and endurance. Adding in rest decreases the endurance component. You're perfectly welcome to train the elements with rest if you like. However, doing so won't build up the endurance necessary to pass the mastery test, so you'll just have to repeat the training again without rest. 

Between different elements I usually end up with 1-2 minutes rest but in sets I only take a quick sip of water inbetween the PE & iM.

Xiaopeng Forwards and Twisting Lat Stretch as "rest" makes me think that one of the attributes of a good coach is a mean streak

hk237267 said:

I find it almost impossible to complete the HBP/PE2 and RC/PE1 elements with good form if I use just the iM alone as rest.  I am on Week 6 on both right now and I take an additional 1-2 minutes on top of the iM after each set.  Should we not progress onto the next mini-cycle until we can complete the previous cycle with little rest?

 

If you need rest to complete all the sets, you should repeat the current mini-cycle until you no longer need to rest.

I thought F1 said to rest only long enough to do the iM, then go back to the PE/SE?  I try to take as quick a rest as I feel I need, but no more than 30 seconds in between sets (I'm looking at you HBP/PE2 and RC/PE2).  If this is wrong and it's absolutely no rest, I will go back to see where I stand in progression.

That is what it says. And that's what everyone else meant, I'm sure. The time it takes to do the relevant iM is the only rest you should be getting. Rest any less and you're skipping the iM. Rest any more and you need to cut it back for mastery.

Ahh, I think it's the way I'm interpreting what coach wrote. I read it as take the minimum break you need between the PE/SE and iM. I guess I should have read it as the rest is the minimum time it takes to perform the iM    Aaaaaand, back to finding my proper starting week it is    

Ha, woops. Now you see why "rest" in Foundation is a hell of a euphemism.

I don’t view the Foundation courses as an endurance training. I know that, as I get stronger, it will become easier to do the 5 x 5 sets required for mastery. However, I experience that more as neuromuscular adaptation that comes with the specific strength increase, and not as having increased my aerobic and anaerobic capacity, and all the other adaptations that come with endurance training.

In my case, for most of the exercises it is the mobility element that requires (a lot) more practice. To me, therefore, it is interesting that this discussion treats mobility mostly as a short rest period. In my case, I often end up spending a lot more time practicing the mobility elements, both within and outside the template of the course (thereby getting the "rest" talked about in Alex's excerpt). So, by the time that I have (finally) mastered the mobility, I often will have spent so much time practicing the strength element -including a lot of “rest†due to extensive mobility practice- that mastery feels like, well, mastery. Apparently, there are more ways then one to skin the “mastery†cat. That is one of the things I love about Foundation, lots of structure, but also plenty of room to allow for your own particular (neuromuscular) idiosyncrasies.

Do you do more work on the iMs than prescribed by F1 between PE/SE sets? Or do you just do the written reps very slowly? Anyway, as long as you eliminate that extra rest when you attempt mastery obviously you're fine. That's an interesting approach. I've been hewing closer to the F1 template, but I have failed sets and had to repeat microcycles for a couple things. I do some extra mobility work outside the program as well and that's been working for me. Endurance is definitely what's holding me back.

FritsMB said:

I don’t view the Foundation courses as an endurance training. I know that, as I get stronger, it will become easier to do the 5 x 5 sets required for mastery. However, I experience that more as neuromuscular adaptation that comes with the specific strength increase, and not as having increased my aerobic and anaerobic capacity, and all the other adaptations that come with endurance training.

 

Cardiovascular endurance is not the only kind of endurance. In the case of the high-rep (e.g. 5x30, 5x60) Foundation exercises, you're training muscle groups to be able to continuously activate for long periods.

trw said:

Do you do more work on the iMs than prescribed by F1 between PE/SE sets? Or do you just do the written reps very slowly? 

 

Hari_Seldon said:

Cardiovascular endurance is not the only kind of endurance. In the case of the high-rep (e.g. 5x30, 5x60) Foundation exercises, you're training muscle groups to be able to continuously activate for long periods.

Rather then getting bogged down in semantics, I tried to find more information about the subject of the relationship of strength and endurance and the effect of training intensity, time-under-load and rest period; and this in the 30 seconds to 60+ seconds muscle activation time span that is also targeted in the F1 course (e.g. FL PE1 through 6). I tried specifically to find more about what happens to the (let’s call it) energy supply systems (i.e. the circulatory and respiratory systems) that have to develop together with hypertrophy. After all, just an increase in muscle fiber by itself does not result in a strength gain. For that an adequate (new) energy supply (including oxygen) to those (new) muscle fibers is needed. And, it stands to reason that the supply system needs to be jolted (i.e. put under stress by training) as well to increase so those muscles can be activated (for 30 to 60 seconds). So far, I didn’t find anything that could give me more insights. Any ideas?

Foundation movements are not meant to be max effort. If at first you need to take more rest than the IM's then do so. This assumes you have not falsely advanced yourself from one level to the next. As you improve dial back the rest breaks and repeat the mini-cycle for mastery with only IM's as your rest.

Don't be too concerned with over thinking the energy system requirement for these movements. It's not as simple as saying they all utilize X. It changes based on several variables.

Nic Branson said:

Foundation movements are not meant to be max effort. If at first you need to take more rest than the IM's then do so. This assumes you have not falsely advanced yourself from one level to the next. As you improve dial back the rest breaks and repeat the mini-cycle for mastery with only IM's as your rest.

Don't be too concerned with over thinking the energy system requirement for these movements. It's not as simple as saying they all utilize X. It changes based on several variables.

Good thing that you clarified this. F1 was a bit disappointing in the sense that there were no guidelines given for situations, when you can't progress as prescribed.

millhill said:

Good thing that you clarified this. F1 was a bit disappointing in the sense that there were no guidelines given for situations, when you can't progress as prescribed.

It is because you missed the webcast last February!

FredInChina said:

It is because you missed the webcast last February!

So what exactly did I miss?

Just busting your chops, there was no webcast

The ideas behind F1, as far as I understand them, are to (1) keep you in the gym and not in front of the computer, and (2) get you back in the gym as soon as you are done looking things up, so you end up learning by experimenting.

In any event, the more instructions you give, the more questions there will be!

I like the simplicity of

"Do that! Figure it out! Tell us when it is done!"

It is a nice change from the constant baby sitting, hand holding & spoon feeding that is slowly but surely dumbing us all down!

"Here is the map. You are here. Go there"... You'll get lost, learn something, and eventually everything will be fine!

Self discovery leads to better understanding of movement and you remember it.