Limber vs. bridge kickover difficulty and bilater vs. unilateral movements

[landgabriel]

As I understand it, a limber takes more strength, a kickover more flexibility, correct? A limber is more of a guys skill, a kickover/walkover more of a ladies skill?

 

Starting tumbling late, at 33, I plan to only go to back handspring after I achieve a kickover or even walkover. This may seem impossible for someone who has no gymnastics or flexibility background, but training every day, I am getting closer. I can kick off the ground higher from a backbend every week.

 

I also have this idea in mind that unilateral movements, like a kickover, create less torque on the joints than bilateral movements such as a limber. The reason for this being the muscles don't limit range of motion by working against eachother.

 

In a kickover, the spine gets put in a slight twist, which I perceive as protective of the spin. In a limber, the spin is forced into a limited ROM.

 

Unilateral movements accommodate more ROM which can lead to less injury. I noticed how back hand spring walkouts are smoother and more silent than flick flacks. How walkovers can be done slowly but hand springs not, how in general unilateral movements can be done more slowly. Slow is good for an older body, rather than muscling through a movement.

 

 Just ideas I appreciate any feedback.

 

 

[Joshua Slocum]

There's no need to achieve a kickover or a limber before learning a handspring. In fact, it's likely to be confusing, as the action for the handspring is quite different. I would consider the prerequisites for learning a back handspring to be:

 

- flexible hips and shoulders (e.g. have a nice bridge)

- solid cartwheels and roundoffs

- strong enough to hold a good wall handstand for time

 

If you've got all those, there's no reason not to start training for back handsprings now. if you don't have all three of those, you'd be better served working towards that than training kickovers. This is not to say you shouldn't train kickovers, but if your goal is to learn a handspring you should focus your efforts on what's listed above. 

[landgabriel]

You say having flexible hips and shoulders and a good bridge is a prereq for A back handspring... well that's exactly why I want to train for a back /front walkover first. I am interested in preparing my body as much as possible with slow, controlled movements before explosiveness.

[Blairbob]

WRONG.

 

Virtually every women's artistic gymnastics program will use kickovers and walkovers as they are in the compulsory routines. A handstand to bridge (1/2 of a front limber) is in the early levels.

Generally at these lower levels, we have them train kickovers on both legs and ideally walkovers on both legs.

I have heard in Power Tumbling some coaches prefer for their tumblers to not naturally be flexible in their shoulders and to be able to do a bridge. I don't exactly agree on this.

If you were to sift through the forum, you would see that Coach Sommer himself uses the front limber in his Front Handspring development.

[Cole Dano]

I'm not sure if for a 33 yr old male I'd consider a full kickover or walkover a pre-req for handspring either. It's likely that they would never get a good one. Now that's not to say that one shouldn't work progressions toward that starting with bridge. I've seen way too many adults with better handsprings than me that can barely lift into a bridge to believe that requiring them to do a full walkover is necessary.

 

Moreover, as a yoga teacher, I've seen too many adults rush the progression for limbers and cause themselves a great deal of back pain as a result.

 

 

This is in no way saying to neglect spinal mobility, but some things shouldn't be forced. The two can be worked concurrently. In that regard Coach Sommer's point about the forces on a body in tumbling is highly germane, and IMO these elements are best learned on a more forgiving surface like onto a RESI pit, or air/tumble track. These surfaces also help compensate for lack of flexibility, favoring tighter body lines as Blair points out.

[Karl Kallio]

There were some good ideas for working back flexibility in this thread:

 

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/181-developing-active-back-flexibility/?hl=bridge

 

They helped me a lot

[landgabriel]

I'm not sure if for a 33 yr old male I'd consider a full kickover or walkover a pre-req for handspring either. It's likely that they would never get a good one. Now that's not to say that one shouldn't work progressions toward that starting with bridge. I've seen way too many adults with better handsprings than me that can barely lift into a bridge to believe that requiring them to do a full walkover is necessary.

 

Moreover, as a yoga teacher, I've seen too many adults rush the progression for limbers and cause themselves a great deal of back pain as a result.

 

 

This is in no way saying to neglect spinal mobility, but some things shouldn't be forced. The two can be worked concurrently. In that regard Coach Sommer's point about the forces on a body in tumbling is highly germane, and IMO these elements are best learned on a more forgiving surface like onto a RESI pit, or air/tumble track. These surfaces also help compensate for lack of flexibility, favoring tighter body lines as Blair points out.

The reason I thought to get a kickover first is to make sure my body is prepared through a full ROM. Unfortunately, I cant get to a gym but once or twice a year.

 

Interesting comments, I am interested in the combination of yoga and gymnastics.

[landgabriel]

WRONG.

 

Virtually every women's artistic gymnastics program will use kickovers and walkovers as they are in the compulsory routines. A handstand to bridge (1/2 of a front limber) is in the early levels.

Generally at these lower levels, we have them train kickovers on both legs and ideally walkovers on both legs.

I have heard in Power Tumbling some coaches prefer for their tumblers to not naturally be flexible in their shoulders and to be able to do a bridge. I don't exactly agree on this.

If you were to sift through the forum, you would see that Coach Sommer himself uses the front limber in his Front Handspring development.

I don't get it, what's wrong?

 

I guess I mean back limber, specifically.

 

Im talking about tumbling on grass, not on a spring floor, BTW. I want to be able to do a back walkover before I progress to a handspring, to prepare my joints.

[Joshua Slocum]

Learning a walkover is not sufficient preparation for learning a back-handspring. Cartwheels and roundoffs will give your body a gentle introduction to the dynamic loads experienced during more difficult tumbling. A solid bridge (which you should attain before seriously training walkovers anyways) will help develop strength and flexibility. Handstand work completes the picture by giving special attention to the wrists and shoulders, which will be taking the most load.