I want the muscle up

So I've done some researching, and I need to work false grip and transition mostly.

With rows, mine tend to resemble neutral pullups, is this right for false grip rows?  I'm picturing it in my head and it looks like a really ugly curl...

Any advice on how to train the transition?  Like, at the top of a row or one arm at a time or some such?

Any other advice anyone can think of?

Edit: I should mention that I have a place where I can hang rings for dips, and a place where I can hang rings for pullups, but the clearance for dips is not high enough for pullups, and with pullups the straps are too high for me to do dips.

I mostly just want the muscle up so I can practice dips at the same time as pullups lol.  Also, it's godlike power.

Pull-ups where you bring the bar/rings to your chest.

Russian dips (let your elbows sink down to wrist-level before pressing back up).

Muscle-up negatives.

Also, if you don't have a false-grip, train that, too.

Bipocni said:

it's godlike power.

If a muscle up is godlike power then I don't even know what a full planche, maltese, or victorian are.

There are many threads on this forum that have suggestions to help you work your muscle up.  Use the search function!

Slow negatives moving from the top of the dip down to the botttom of the false grip hang are a good place to start (see if you can do these).  If this is too hard just work slow negatives from the support hold down into the transition and reverse direction and come back up before you've gone too far to reverse direction.

Sitting on an elastic therapy band that is pinned between your hands and the rings is also helpful.

Watch the volume on these.  Lots of people develop elbow/sternum issues from getting too excited and overworking muscle ups.

First of, when you do gain the muscle up, the volume you will be able to do will be so low, that it won't work as a substitute for dips and pull-ups. You will perhaps be able to do two to four in a session, and these numbers tend to rise quite slowly in my experience. Even getting to the point of doing ten muscle-ups in a session will take you a long time.

I got my first one from doing a lot of overhanging climbing and heavy weighted pull-ups. One day I was just able to pull through the transition with a bit of kipping going on at the hips. If you can't do this, the most obvious place to start is doing russian dips. Do them with some kipping initially to get through the sticking point, then work on doing them slow and controlled. Keep volume low to begin with, they are tough on the elbows, if you're unconditioned. Likewise, if you're a beginner, I wouldn't do slow negative muscle ups. They require quite a bit of strength, are even rougher on the elbows, and you probably won't be able to get enough volume going to make the training worthwhile, since they are hard.

Bipocni said:

So I've done some researching, and I need to work false grip and transition mostly.

 

With rows, mine tend to resemble neutral pullups, is this right for false grip rows?  I'm picturing it in my head and it looks like a really ugly curl...

 

Any advice on how to train the transition?  Like, at the top of a row or one arm at a time or some such?

 

Any other advice anyone can think of?

 

Edit: I should mention that I have a place where I can hang rings for dips, and a place where I can hang rings for pullups, but the clearance for dips is not high enough for pullups, and with pullups the straps are too high for me to do dips.

 

I mostly just want the muscle up so I can practice dips at the same time as pullups lol.  Also, it's godlike power.

There is a FritsMB post in this board that show how he did assisted MUp transitions to get his MUp. I like it because it develops raw transition strength through the whole ROM, so you don't have to fake it with kipping, which is hard to quantify. That's how I got mine, too. Google it up.

Cannister said:

If a muscle up is godlike power then I don't even know what a full planche, maltese, or victorian are.

Everyone has their own personal Everest. 

Kipping isn't a good way to train the muscle up. I'm not a fan of the false grip row either. From my experience, it doesn't resemble the muscle up enough.

Elbow overuse can be due to weak grip. I suggest you focus on grip strength as prehab, this is essential if you want to progress further.

If you are training for the muscle up, you should already be proficient with ring dips, supports, and pull ups. The muscle up is not a training tool for maximal bent arm strength, and if you focus on it for that, you will detrain those abilities. Focusing on the transition and false grip will be the keys to success. If you can't do the transition with full bodyweight, there are still other options. 

raja said:

Kipping isn't a good way to train the muscle up. I'm not a fan of the false grip row either. From my experience, it doesn't resemble the muscle up enough.

A small kip is ok to help get through the transition when the muscle up is first being learned.  Just learning to turn the body over the rings is valuable.  What you shouldn't do is that crazy kip/almost bent arm back uprise stuff I see.  This isnt a muscle up.

Also I think a muscle up is a valuable bent arm ring strength movement and should be worked when the time comes.  Im curious what skills you think will be detrained by it?  Remember that a warmup should incorporate skills so that detraining should not occur.

Firstly get a strong pull-up.  If someone does not have a strong pullup they have no buisness trying a muscle up.  Concurrently get your dip deep. Hari has also listed the things that you should master before muscle up. After these things follow the steps outlined in BTGB it has good progressions that allow you to build up to a slow MU.  

Bipocni said:

Any advice on how to train the transition?  Like, at the top of a row or one arm at a time or some such?

 

Any other advice anyone can think of?

 

 

After being able to do slow pull ups and slow dips on the rings, I focused on the transition. For me the key was to learn to pull my elbows backwards from a hang in pull up position to  the dip position; Russian dips didi not help me to do this, so I skipped those. In the beginning the transition was quite painful, given a lack of sufficient flexibility in the shoulder ligaments (and connective tissue). So I reduced the load by keeping my toes on a basket ball. After some weeks I got to the point where I did not need the support anymore. From that point on I progressed quite quickly to a very slow controlled muscle up. Here is a video that may help you. Please note that in the slow muscle up I already start pulling my elbows back when my shoulders are at my hands (so before they get up to my sternum). Good luck. Just be disciplined and patient about it; don’t overdo it. And you will get it for sure.

Edited by FritsMB

Daniel Burnham said:

A small kip is ok to help get through the transition when the muscle up is first being learned.  Just learning to turn the body over the rings is valuable.  What you shouldn't do is that crazy kip/almost bent arm back uprise stuff I see.  This isnt a muscle up.

 

Also I think a muscle up is a valuable bent arm ring strength movement and should be worked when the time comes.  Im curious what skills you think will be detrained by it?  Remember that a warmup should incorporate skills so that detraining should not occur.

 

Firstly get a strong pull-up.  If someone does not have a strong pullup they have no buisness trying a muscle up.  Concurrently get your dip deep. Hari has also listed the things that you should master before muscle up. After these things follow the steps outlined in BTGB it has good progressions that allow you to build up to a slow MU.  

Kipping creates a bad habit. You are better off training the transition if you need to kip.

You should be able to do at least 5 pull ups and dips before training for a muscle up. Training the muscle up will detrain maximal bent arm pulling and pressing strength if there is none trained concurrently. Along with muscle up training, there should be training for maximal bent arm strength.

To some extent you are right but remember that GST isn't just about getting that maximum strength in one plane.  The objective is to get strong overall and a muscle up is more complex than either a dip or a pull-up.  Also the strength required in the transition is worth the effort.   This is the case for most combined push-pull exercises...  Remember that the muscle up is just the first step in ring strength and that stepping stone is worth the effort.  I'm not saying completely stop doing those efforts like you mention, but at some point you will have to deemphasize them if you want to move on.  Personally I work advanced pulling and pushing (OAC, 90 degree pushups) and do ring strength on the side.  A muscle up was beneficial when I trained it.  I have moved on at this point and re-prioritized according to the foundation series.  At this point for me the muscle up is limited basically by the number of pull-ups I can do.  I have done 15+ with not much problem.  So you are right about maximal strength but don't underplay the importance of these more advanced movements.

Also as I mentioned the kip is only ok in the very beginning and should not be exaggerated.  Plenty of people have learned it this way without ill effect.  The key is to know what is exaggerated and always try to slow and improve the transition.  

FritsMB: it has been my experience that russian dips really help transition strength when done correctly.   However I see most people pop off the bar to a dip.  This will of course limit the strength gains through the motion.  I have taught a few people the muscle up >15 following similar progressions that coach laid out.

Another helpful tip is if you can get a spotter to grab your legs and push you through the transition.  This will both let you feel the transition, and limit any kip you might use.  

Daniel Burnham said:

 

FritsMB: it has been my experience that russian dips really help transition strength when done correctly.   However I see most people pop off the bar to a dip.  This will of course limit the strength gains through the motion.  I have taught a few people the muscle up >15 following similar progressions that coach laid out.

 

 

I am really happy for you that Russian dips worked for you to "get" the mu transition. As I already stated, they did not work for me and I found a for me better way of "getting" the mu transition, using my rings instead of pb's (see video in earlier posting). So, maybe, other people, who do not have access to pb's, can try that too and see if it works for them. In fact, I just received a personal message from a Forum member thanking me for my post, because it helped him to get his first mu. Apparently, there are more roads than one that lead to Rome.

I seem to remember hearing that the muscle up was listed as a "basic skill" and I was wondering what are the other basic skills?

I need the muscle up just so that I can train more effectively.  I'm not planning to completely replace pullups and dips with muscle ups, but with my locational issues, the only way I can get above the rings to do dips would be to muscle up... (at one location I train at)

So practicing muscle up negatives will not be an option for me.  I remember when I first trained chin ups that slow negatives really tore up my tendons, so I'm not sure it would be a good option anyway.

I asked about false grip rows because I want to know a good way to condition myself for the false grip, and it seems the best starting point.  Maybe false grip hangs as well.  Can I combine them with german hangs?

I know kipping is bad to begin with, but I've heard of people practicing one arm at a time when they first learn bar muscle ups, and I really need to learn the movement patterns before I can do a strict movement...

I called the muscle up godlike because of the concept it represents.  You think "I want to be on the other side of that bar" and then you are.  So you can imagine how I feel about the gravity defying human flag or maltese...

I never said muscle ups weren't useful or shouldn't be prioritized. But you need to train maximal bent arm strength or it will detrain. Period. With 15+ muscle ups, that is endurance, not maximal strength,  which is why your pull ups can limit you despite bbeing able to perform muscle ups.

False grip hangs are a good way to train the false grip initially. In the beginning I would suggest that you keep the rings lower to the ground and use feet assistance when/if necessary.

Training the transition one arm at a time is not a good idea. This ingrains bad habits and doesn't improve the strength as much as the proper transition. The muscle up is part strength and part skill. 

There are 2 main, basic skills from my perspective: muscle up and handstand.

FritsMB said:

I am really happy for you that Russian dips worked for you to "get" the mu transition. As I already stated, they did not work for me and I found a for me better way of "getting" the mu transition, using my rings instead of pb's (see video in earlier posting). So, maybe, other people, who do not have access to pb's, can try that too and see if it works for them. In fact, I just received a personal message from a Forum member thanking me for my post, because it helped him to get his first mu. Apparently, there are more roads than one that lead to Rome.

No doubt. I actually was always able to do a muscle up though I did go through coach's progressions to make them very slow.

Russian dips WILL work. You need to make them as hard as you can for 1-5 reps for optimal benefits. Work to your strength level and you will get stronger. If you're just going through the motions and flying through them, of course they won't work. You only get back what you put in. Unless you've mastered an L-sit Russian Dip with minimal forward lean, then you don't have the right to say they "didn't work".

Work on false grip pull-ups with the concentric part of the repetition being SLOW and deliberate. Aim to get as high as possible on each rep hold it there for 1-2 seconds. Again, working in sets of 1-5 is fine. QUALITY over quantity. Over time, you will be able to pull the rings/bar to your lower chest. From here, the muscle-up is easy, especially on the rings. Over time, you may even be able to pull higher.

As well as russian dips, you can practise lowering as far into the transition as your strength level allows, and pressing back up. Adding ROM will take time.

Muscle-up negatives can and should be utilised. But only do them if you can control them through the transition. If not, not only will it be useless, you are asking for injury.

The muscle-up is a basic skill, yes.

the only thing you need are the foundation courses. Coach said that no muscle up work will be necessary until the RC foundation is mastered , the risk are

-do bad/not correct skills/progression;

-got an injury;

-got and injury doing bad skills/progression.

Jono said:

Russian dips WILL work. You need to make them as hard as you can for 1-5 reps for optimal benefits. Work to your strength level and you will get stronger. If you're just going through the motions and flying through them, of course they won't work. You only get back what you put in. Unless you've mastered an L-sit Russian Dip with minimal forward lean, then you don't have the right to say they "didn't work".

 

Adding on to this: if Russian dips on parallel bars "didn't work" then you need to try them on the rings 

just to add something more interesting , there is a little trick to build up the necessary strength since russian dips are mastered...and this is revealed at the seminar! so...what are you waiting?

FritsMB said:

I am really happy for you that Russian dips worked for you to "get" the mu transition. As I already stated, they did not work for me and I found a for me better way of "getting" the mu transition, using my rings instead of pb's (see video in earlier posting). So, maybe, other people, who do not have access to pb's, can try that too and see if it works for them. In fact, I just received a personal message from a Forum member thanking me for my post, because it helped him to get his first mu. Apparently, there are more roads than one that lead to Rome.

I also used FritsMB's method of training the transition.

I was unable to perform a single muscle up despite having moderate proficiency with chinups, at about 15 body weight chinups, and the ability to perform 2 or 3 chinups with an extra 70 lbs. added to my weight.  For dips I could perform 15 - 20 and used the same 70 lbs. weight to perform 3 dips.  Yet I could not do a single muscle up.

By following the FritsMB method, I was able to train the transition and successfully achieve a muscle up, however it is not very smooth.  Also, I am unable to perform a controlled negative and therefore can't do more than 1 muscle up in a row.

So give his method a try.

The other things I trained in conjunction with the FritsMB method was wrist strengthening exercises and what I would call a "bent arm shrug" whereby I would hang from the rings in a false grip with my arms bent in flexion, and then shrug my arms back and up to perform a very limited range of motion of the transition.  It is my belief that this strengthened my scapula retractors.

hibernate said:

 

 

The other things I trained in conjunction with the FritsMB method was wrist strengthening exercises ......

Of course, I am as pleased as I can be that I now have the infallible “FritsMB method for MU transition training†to wave in the face of unbelievers. However, that would be taking too much credit. Here is the link to some pointers of coach Sommer that got me thinking, ending up with my basketball assist to master the up part of my MU transition. Nothing magical:

https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/11-developing-the-muscle-up-transition/

There is not much too add. Well, maybe to suggest not too be too dogmatic about what works and what does not. 

Well, and then there is this:

Jono said:

.....Unless you've mastered an L-sit Russian Dip with minimal forward lean, then you don't have the right to say they "didn't work".

Jono, you make a common mistake: you are using a moral argument (by making a statement about somebody’s right to say something about something) in an empirical discussion (that forum members are having about their personal experience of what works better to learn the MU transition). They don't mix very well, because their relationships to reality go in opposite directions. Fortunately, it is not so common on this Forum, also thanks to knowledgeable moderators who know hat moral arguments have a tendency to become heated and sometimes personal. Take care.

I understand what you're saying. Personally, I didn't use russian dips to get a no hip pike slow MU (In fact, I didn't even know what I russian dip was when did this!), but they'll inevitably work if you stick at them. Perhaps they aren't the best way for everyone, but that's not what I meant. Apologies if it seemed that way.

The way I learnt was to do the dynamic bar MU with no hip pike or kip, which was probably the least efficient way as it ended up being a function of my explosive pull-up ability.

From personal experience, doing a slow pull-up as high as possible, striving to increase the ROM will aid you most in the slow MU.

I'm not going to have access to parallel bars for a few weeks, but I figured I could train the movement on the floor until then.  Just to clarify:

I start with a 90 degree angle at my elbow, with my shoulders stacked directly over them.  Then I move my shoulders forwards until they are over my hands, staying level, until I'm in the down position of a basic pushup.  Then I do a pushup.  Reverse.  Right? 

Only thing I'm worried about is rocking back and forth with my feet on the ground.  Would I be losing too much of the benefits if I just raised and lowered my elbows without moving back and forth?

And when it comes to the false grip, I'm to place my wrist on the rings, then hook my thumb through right?  Because that's really uncomfortable, and I was just wondering if I'm correct.  I think I've seen Olympic gymnasts do the false grip running across the middle of their palms, and that seems like it would hurt a lot less.  Also, when I do dips, that's the grip I use, rather than have my wrist sitting on the rings.

So is there some hidden strength benefit to resting your wrists on the rings in the false grip?  Is there a higher strength requirement to do it one way or the other?

 Yeah, false grip isn't very comfortable when starting out. Tape your wrists.

 I first learned a muscle up on rings sometime around 2000 I think. I know I didn't come across a Russian dip on PB till the GB forum so maybe 2007 or 8. In those days I could do like 15-25 really deep dips on dip bars and I never had worked a weighted dip.

 It's not super necessary, especially if you don't have access to a set of PB ( I didn't for awhile until I got a set for my gym ). It's not the end of the world if you don't have a set of PB or dip bars. You just have to get creative about scaling ring dips and maybe end up doing them on something like chairs or barstools, etc.

 However, russian dips have helped a lot of my little guys get their muscle-ups. Generally I either spotted them or let them use a bike tube after that as an assist.

 Resting your wrist on the rings in the false grip makes the muscle-up much easier. It shortens the ROM and gives you a lever advantage to push off of. So doing a muscle-up without a false grip is much harder. You'll need a quick pullup to get into the transition which is why some may kip a muscle-up that isn't done with a false grip. Some people are able to pullup fast enough to shift their wrists on top of rings or a bar and then push out of the dip.

 Occasionally when I didn't have access to the PB, I would use two boxes or triangle wedges on their side and sort of start in the upper arm position and do russian dips from that sort of seated position. Problem is, I rarely see objects that can be used for this progression except some types of chairs that are sometimes too low. Sawhorses would work, but how many people have these or 2 of them. You would need pretty sturdy boxes, not just storage boxes.