Elbow pain after 1 week. Need advice

Hi all.

So I started with both the F1 and H1 1 week ago and I must say I totally love it.

However. Now I have elbow pain in both my elbows. I think I went out to hard, because stupid as I am. I ramped up the intensity of the program to give me an even greater challenge.

So. What should I do now? I know rest and recovery is important etc etc. But is there any other movements and exercises I can do instead and is there exercises I should avoid, like benchpress, press, dips etc.?

I'm thinking of taking around 7 days of and in the meantime do some other stuff, like kettlebells and some powerlifting.

Hi Kokaka,

Glad to hear you're enjoying the programming.

A little more info would likely be helpful to anyone hoping to advise you:

- Did you start with Week1 in both F1 and H1?

- Which schedule were you on?

- How did you ramp up the intensity?

- Were you doing other training as well?

- What kind of pain, and where do you feel it?

- Any history of similar issues?

Cheers,

George.

How exactly did you ramp up the intensity?

F1 and H1 have pretty clear programming and integration startegies to prevent this happening. If you follow the templates and the guidelines regarding mastery, the intensity should increase at a sustainable rate.

Or were you adding your own stuff too?

Too slow again!

Hi all.

Thanks for your replies.

- Did you start with Week1 in both F1 and H1?

Yes.

- Which schedule were you on?

5 Day F1

4 Day H1

- How did you ramp up the intensity?

Did 5 sets of every exercise. Did 3-5 reps Weighted Dips or 8-12 Bulgarian Dips on Hollow Back press day. 3-5 Wheighted Pullups or Chins on rope climb day. Did 4 sets of 45-60 seconds Wall Hand Stands. Added ankle wheights on all core exercises exept hollow rock's.

- Were you doing other training as well?

I threw in some straddle-L sits (45'ish) Degrees. 1 Day Squats, 1 Day Bench, 1 Day Deadlift a week. Some swimming, some sprint training, some rowing, and some Kettlebell Snatches

- What kind of pain, and where do you feel it?

I would describe it as a very sharp "muscle soreness" locaded on the point of the elbow and 2cm/1 inch inside the arm. Hard to tell because it have almost gone away now 2h after my workout.

- Any history of similar issues?

No, never.

I see myself as a fit individual as a former swedish Combat/Demolition diver. (equivalent to the navy SEALS) and I never have had any elbow injuries.

So to what I understand now is that I need to reduce the intensity of the workout but is there anything I can add because I love to train extreamly hard. Would probably loose my sanity otherwise.

I have access to a full gym with everything from heavy kettlebells to gymnastic rings, but I would prefer to keep working on my gymnastics.

F1 volume will get more intense as it goes on. also, someone who used to be around the same shape I was in when I started decided to join me for a week 6 WOD yesterday (4x9 & 4x36sec) and he was sweating it and I was challenged but clearly not at the level he was. my point, we can finish the workouts, with poor form or proper form, doesn't matter. what will lay the "foundation" which is the purpose of this program is the quality work we dedicate to each element with proper form.

in my opinion(opinion, I can be wrong and i am not a professional)

on your hollow holds, i'd add in glute/ham tension along with pressing your back into the ground, in substitute of the ankle weights. 
on your HBP days, when you do HBP or sPL progressions, i'd grip the floor with your hands with the length of your fingers in substitute of doing dips.
 

you can do so many things to make an "easy" day so much more challenging and the "thing" you can do is just execute with the best form you currently possess. this will put you in a position to not only do your workout in but also not have to endanger the progress you are having in F1 by doing more advanced elements before prior PE's and iM's are mastered. if you do, tread at your own risk.  

Kokaka said:

I see myself as a fit individual as a former swedish Combat/Demolition diver. (equivalent to the navy SEALS) and I never have had any elbow injuries.

So to what I understand now is that I need to reduce the intensity of the workout but is there anything I can add because I love to train extreamly hard. Would probably loose my sanity otherwise.

I have access to a full gym with everything from heavy kettlebells to gymnastic rings, but I would prefer to keep working on my gymnastics.

The thing you have to realize about Gymnastic Strength Training™ is that it utilizes parts of your physiology that are used little or not at all in many common forms of training. These tend to be areas that develop strength very slowly: the tendons of the wrists, elbows and shoulders; the muscles of the forearm; the smaller shoulder muscles, etc. Because of this slow rate of adaptation, they also are very prone to overtraining injuries. The fastest way to build up strength in these areas is to perform a weekly workout that stresses them at moderate volume and moderate intensity, making sure to allow for adequate recovery time. 

Developing strength is a two-stroke process. You train, and then you recover. You train, then recover; train, then recover. Many people have a mindset of "more training = more progress!". But beyond a certain point, additional training begins to interfere with recovery. The engine of your development becomes less efficient when you do not complete the second stroke. One of the most difficult parts of training is having the courage and self awareness to acknowledge your own limits and adhere to them.

It's easy to mindlessly say "more training! MORE TRAINING!"

It's hard to admit to yourself "I have limits. More than this, I can not safely train."

My recommendations:

Allow yourself time to heal. A week is a good amount of time to start with, but it's possible that it will take longer. Avoid any high-intensity upper-body work. Stick to very low-intensity, very high-rep work. Don't do anything that makes your elbows hurt. Don't resume higher-intensity work until the pain is completely gone.

Once your elbows have recovered, I would recommend going back to F1/H1 on a 4/3 day schedule. Spend at least one 12-week cycle at that weekly volume before deciding whether or not you can handle more. Rather than trying to add volume and intensity onto the prescribed programming, challenge yourself to execute everything with impeccable form. If you bend your legs when they shouldn't be bent, don't count the rep; if you fail to go all the way down and all the way up, don't count the rep; if your feet come apart when they were supposed to be held together, don't count the rep. F1/H1 may not start out with the intensity that you like your training to have. Don't try to shoehorn it into being the kind of workout you want. The F1/H1 programming was carefully laid out by a professional; disregarding that programming defeats the purpose of following a professionally designed course. Think of F1/H1 as eating your green vegetables: it may not be the most enjoyable part of your training, but it's good for you. 

If you wish to add on top of F1/H1, I would avoid any additional upper-body strength training. Though you may be able to handle the volume initially, it will be unsustainable once F1 ramps up. Since you crave workout intensity, I would try adding 20 minutes of HIIT after each F1/H1 workout. Try to keep the HIIT more focused on lower-body movements. 

Hari_Seldon said:

The thing you have to realize about Gymnastic Strength Training™ is that it utilizes parts of your physiology that are used little or not at all in many common forms of training. These tend to be areas that develop strength very slowly: the tendons of the wrists, elbows and shoulders; the muscles of the forearm; the smaller shoulder muscles, etc. Because of this slow rate of adaptation, they also are very prone to overtraining injuries. The fastest way to build up strength in these areas is to perform a weekly workout that stresses them at moderate volume and moderate intensity, making sure to allow for adequate recovery time. 

 

Developing strength is a two-stroke process. You train, and then you recover. You train, then recover; train, then recover. Many people have a mindset of "more training = more progress!". But beyond a certain point, additional training begins to interfere with recovery. The engine of your development becomes less efficient when you do not complete the second stroke. One of the most difficult parts of training is having the courage and self awareness to acknowledge your own limits and adhere to them.

 

 

It's easy to mindlessly say "more training! MORE TRAINING!"

It's hard to admit to yourself "I have limits. More than this, I can not safely train."

 

 

 

My recommendations:

 

Allow yourself time to heal. A week is a good amount of time to start with, but it's possible that it will take longer. Avoid any high-intensity upper-body work. Stick to very low-intensity, very high-rep work. Don't do anything that makes your elbows hurt. Don't resume higher-intensity work until the pain is completely gone.

 

Once your elbows have recovered, I would recommend going back to F1/H1 on a 4/3 day schedule. Spend at least one 12-week cycle at that weekly volume before deciding whether or not you can handle more. Rather than trying to add volume and intensity onto the prescribed programming, challenge yourself to execute everything with impeccable form. If you bend your legs when they shouldn't be bent, don't count the rep; if you fail to go all the way down and all the way up, don't count the rep; if your feet come apart when they were supposed to be held together, don't count the rep. F1/H1 may not start out with the intensity that you like your training to have. Don't try to shoehorn it into being the kind of workout you want. The F1/H1 programming was carefully laid out by a professional; disregarding that programming defeats the purpose of following a professionally designed course. Think of F1/H1 as eating your green vegetables: it may not be the most enjoyable part of your training, but it's good for you. 

 

If you wish to add on top of F1/H1, I would avoid any additional upper-body strength training. Though you may be able to handle the volume initially, it will be unsustainable once F1 ramps up. Since you crave workout intensity, I would try adding 20 minutes of HIIT after each F1/H1 workout. Try to keep the HIIT more focused on lower-body movements. 

Cool. Great post. Will definetly scale down the workout once I heal up.

So, about the HIIT training. I do crave cettlebells. Would Swings, Snatches, Cleans be ok to do? 

Also. I have a very enjoyable program called Viking Warrior Conditioning that I like to do. You set the clock for 15:15 seconds work/rest period and do 80 sets of 6-7 snatches alternating arms for a total of 480 - 560 reps.

Would that be to much since I extend the elbow at the top? It is a full body movement and I don't think it's to much impact on the elbow

Kokaka said:

Cool. Great post. Will definetly scale down the workout once I heal up.

So, about the HIIT training. I do crave cettlebells. Would Swings, Snatches, Cleans be ok to do? 

Also. I have a very enjoyable program called Viking Warrior Conditioning that I like to do. You set the clock for 15:15 seconds work/rest period and do 80 sets of 6-7 snatches alternating arms for a total of 480 - 560 reps.

Would that be to much since I extend the elbow at the top? It is a full body movement and I don't think it's to much impact on the elbow

Unfortunately I'm unfamiliar with those exercises; you'll have to use your own judgement. Be careful to pay attention to how your elbows feel afterwards. 

Kokaka said:

... However. Now I have elbow pain in both my elbows. I think I went out to hard, because stupid as I am. I ramped up the intensity of the program to give me an even greater challenge ...

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Coach Sommer said:

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Ditto

Hey, it looks like you did not start off with PE1 among the different elements in F1 and H1, but did you test for Mastery in the more basic elements before moving to advanced ones?

So here's the brutal truth... You attempted to give yourself "a greater challenge" and your body failed. It sucks to hear/read this and I don't say this to be mean. You need to start with an understanding of this basic fact, however, that an injury is the body failing. This doesn't diminish your fitness/strength, which sounds fantastic. I certainly wouldn't have been able to do the extra work you did. 

If if is true that your training is similar to that of the SEALS then you also have fantastic discipline. It's time to apply that.

Hari_Seldon said:

Allow yourself time to heal. ...

...Rather than trying to add volume and intensity onto the prescribed programming, challenge yourself to execute everything with impeccable form. If you bend your legs when they shouldn't be bent, don't count the rep; if you fail to go all the way down and all the way up, don't count the rep; if your feet come apart when they were supposed to be held together, don't count the rep.

These are fantastic recommendations and I'd follow them strictly. If you do, I think you'll find plenty of challenge. As was said, some of the challenge is to the tendons and joints. These don't give the "burn" that you're used to, but it doesn't mean that there is a lack of challenge. You'll just have to apply your discipline to recognizing that the challenge isn't what you're used to and doesn't feel like what you're used to.

Also, as was noted above, it seems as though you might not have thoroughly followed the mastery testing regim (if you did, please disregard what I'm about to say). For many of us this was a humbling process. I could perform many of the exercised (like the arch body hold), but couldn't do it perfectly at the mastery volume (e.g. I could hold the ABH, but couldn't do it perfectly, five times for 60 seconds).

In the fire service we borrow a lot of our ideas from military folks such as yourself. One of them is that a good firefighter is someone who can "perform small tasks, well, under pressure." This applies here. The pressure is your own urge to push forward quickly.

IcedDante said:

Hey, it looks like you did not start off with PE1 among the different elements in F1 and H1, but did you test for Mastery in the more basic elements before moving to advanced ones?

Yes I did try to master as much as possible the first day. Mastering everything but Hollow body rock and my new favourite exercise, the planche lean, which just kicked my ass.

mmm said:

So here's the brutal truth... You attempted to give yourself "a greater challenge" and your body failed. It sucks to hear/read this and I don't say this to be mean. You need to start with an understanding of this basic fact, however, that an injury is the body failing. This doesn't diminish your fitness/strength, which sounds fantastic. I certainly wouldn't have been able to do the extra work you did. 

 

 

If if is true that your training is similar to that of the SEALS then you also have fantastic discipline. It's time to apply that.

 

 

These are fantastic recommendations and I'd follow them strictly. If you do, I think you'll find plenty of challenge. As was said, some of the challenge is to the tendons and joints. These don't give the "burn" that you're used to, but it doesn't mean that there is a lack of challenge. You'll just have to apply your discipline to recognizing that the challenge isn't what you're used to and doesn't feel like what you're used to.

 

Also, as was noted above, it seems as though you might not have thoroughly followed the mastery testing regim (if you did, please disregard what I'm about to say). For many of us this was a humbling process. I could perform many of the exercised (like the arch body hold), but couldn't do it perfectly at the mastery volume (e.g. I could hold the ABH, but couldn't do it perfectly, five times for 60 seconds).

 

In the fire service we borrow a lot of our ideas from military folks such as yourself. One of them is that a good firefighter is someone who can "perform small tasks, well, under pressure." This applies here. The pressure is your own urge to push forward quickly.

Good post. Yes I overestimated my physical capasity. Failing to realise that this is a new style of training which put different demands on my body.

What I will do in the future is to follow the 12 week cycle to a point and see it as a "Skill training session" and not as the main workout . Then continuing by doing a HIIT style workout which will consist mostly of full body movements like kettlebell lifts, burpees and sprints. Maybe with some running or swimming afterwards.

I'm far to old to be stupid (again).

On a sidenote. My elbows feel alot better today. Just feel a bit sore, like muscle soreness. Hopefully, it was just a strain from overloading my elbows to soon. But I will wait atleast for 7 days just to be shure.

Kokaka, I made roughly the same mistake when I began, thinking basically "I'm too fit for this low volume. My fitness will go out the window if I don't add stuff".

Well, I'm now at week ten for some of the PE´s, and things are getting so hard, that I need to drop more or less all the extras, that my ego had commanded me to add to the workouts.

I wonder what it is about pride that makes us do things like that.

At this point I have finally achieved a certain Zen-calmness about the whole thing. I've stopped worrying and surrendered myself to Coach Sommer's Omniscience  . That's actually one of the best effects of the program: The peace of mind of not having to worry about setting up programs and dialing in. Just do the work and you're good.

Hari_Seldon said:

(...) One of the most difficult parts of training is having the courage and self awareness to acknowledge your own limits and adhere to them. (...)

QFT!

Great post Hari, thank you

Ravn said:

(...) Just do the work (...).

QFT!

Kokaka said:

(...)  80 sets of 6-7 snatches alternating arms for a total of 480 - 560 reps. (...)

Elbow pain you said...

If you can shelve your ego until your body adapts to the demands of GST, then F1 will be a tremendous asset to your training.  

However if you are going to continue to do the GST equivalent of "playing in heavy traffic with your eyes closed" then there is not a lot that we can do to save you from yourself.  

Here is an excerpt from the F1 section "No Brain No Gain":

"... The biggest mistake you can make is to not understand and respect the fact that just because you are starting off strong at other athletic endeavors doesn't mean that you don't need to start at the beginning in GST.  The very beginning ..."

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Yea...

Kokata, there's nothing wrong with doing a FEW (2-3) sets of those kettlebell swings or snatches in your warm up. I'm talking about 3 sets, TOTAL, not each. However:

With F1 you have started down a path of strength that is completely unlike anything else that you will ever do, because gymnastic strength is based on decreasing leverage over time. You will periodically be moving to positions that require more and more body control, and more joint strength, as movements become more complex and your leverage decreases.

Particularly in the beginning, you will find that you just can't handle much extra training if you're on the 4 or 5 day program. It's a lot more work than it seems to be just based on the numbers.

If you choose to do additional training, the 3 day schedule is probably more appropriate, but you clearly do not currently have enough experience with GST (Gymnastic Strength Training™) to be able to successfully integrate other training at this time.

My suggestion for you is to go through at least two 12 week cycles on the 4 or 5 day program, without any other training.

You will never, ever know what the actual impact on your system is until you do this, and you will always be overestimating what you can handle without injury.

I guess it's your choice whether you:

1) want to go down the path where you get hurt a lot, which you've taken your first few steps on already, or whether you

2) want to let your body adjust to Gymnastic Strength Training™ for a while so that you let your body heal and strengthen itself properly, AND so that you can make more educated decisions regarding what you can handle on top of the Foundation work, if you should at some point decide that's what you want to try.

In particular, Viking Warrior Conditioning is very strenuous on the system. I used it when I was competing in Japanese MMA, particularly to cut weight, and when doing it more than a 2x a week my performance in all other conditioning dropped due to its recovery demands.

This isn't something you want to run alongside foundational work in *anything*, when quality and volume both need to be superb, even if one's body was conditioned to perform the exercises per se. Adding it to the demands of GST foundational training and expecting both to progress safely is a big ask.

I really like gymnastic training but would it be possible to incorporate any other training beside it that won't affect my tendons? Just as a mental thing because I just like to train extreamly hard and lie in a puddle of sweat afterwards. I think it's because I miss being pushed to my physical and mental limits every day as I was in the force.

My work capacity is very good as is my recovery time. Having no problem recovering from a 3 hour intense sessoin.

Charm said:

In particular, Viking Warrior Conditioning is very strenuous on the system. I used it when I was competing in Japanese MMA, particularly to cut weight, and when doing it more than a 2x a week my performance in all other conditioning dropped due to its recovery demands.

 

This isn't something you want to run alongside foundational work in *anything*, when quality and volume both need to be superb, even if one's body was conditioned to perform the exercises per se. Adding it to the demands of GST foundational training and expecting both to progress safely is a big ask.

Actually I'm using the VWC as a finisher after a workout and have been doing it for many years. Muscle and CNS wise, I have no problem recovering to the next day. Even if I go out to run 6 miles afterwards. But as I have come to understand the hard way.

Muscles and CNS are far different from tendon strenght.

So, my question is. I really, really want to give GST a go. Actually I did buy the Building the gymnastic body and a set of rings back in 2009 and did gymnastics in my fathers garage for 2.5 month when I visited for the summer. And I just loved it and experienced the biggest strenght gain ever in my life. Went from 5 pull ups to 16 with 20kg (44lbs) tucked in a backpack.

I just had to stop because I had nowhere to hang my rings when I got back home.

So actually, this forum and coach Sommer helped me ALOT when I prepared to become a combat diver in the first place. For which I am very gratefull.

Anyway. If I do a 3-4 day F1 program. Would I be able to other training on the side. It dosen't matter what it is. I just need to work out very hard to feel good mentally.

Like maybe do GST in the morning, focusing on quality over quantity. I will se this as skill training, not going only going 70-80% untill my tendons get stronger. And then, some full body stuff in the evening.

Another way that might work is to split up the workouts from F1 into 2. I do the straight arm stuff in the morning,  again, focusing on quality. And then incorporating the core exercises and pull/dips in the evening because I feel I can go all out on them. I have been doing weighted chins and dips for years now so it shouldn't be a problem.

So would that work? Need to train both smart and hard.

I think it comes down to whether you want to progress in your strength endeavors and refrain from injuring yourself further or continue to satisify your psychological need to beat yourself into submission. You aren't going to be able to serve two masters so something will have to give.

Further, there is no way you are working out at high intensity for those periods and truly recovering. You may be working well above what others are capable of doing, and you may be pummelling yourself mentally ... but you are either not working as intensely as you believe, or you aren't recovering like you think you are. Keep in mind intensity is a percentage of all out effort, not simply a reflection of your sweat puddle.

As has been mentioned, you simply won't know unless you stop with the other training for a decent period of time and evaluate. If you seriously "can't" stop the other training for a few months then maybe that training time would be better spent in a therapist's chair.

I truly wish you the best, but advice has been given from people who have BTDT. Listening would be your best bet, not spending time trying to finagle more work into the plan - especially when it is that overzealousness that caused the injury in the first place.

- Chris

The thing I'm trying to find now is a compromise. I have gotten great answers on how to continue to be injury free. I'm just trying to find a solution. Like would swimming or running be bad after F1 training. I don't think running would be bad but swimming might, because of high demands on the rotator cuff during the gymnastics training. But I have now idea. Gymnastics is new to me.

The point I was trying to make when I said my training routine is that muscle wise and cns wise, I can recover very well so additional work would'nt be a problem if it would'nt tax my tendons. And because I masterd everything but 2 exercises in F1 on my first try, soon to master the hollow body rock aswell, I tought I could do with more work.

So if I follow this program. Is every additional work illegal. It is only my elbow joints that are weak i belive. However I have no intention of finding it out if there are more.

And oh, by the way. I'm not crazy. I just like to train and push myself . And as i say to the people I train.

The more ego you have, the weaker you become.

Just got an ideá. The snow is melting away now in sweden so what I could do is focusing on some thriatlon training, alongside the gymnastics. Stick to the program as written and just Run, Swim and Bike as extra. No lifting what so ever.

Would that work?

Kokaka said:

Anyway. If I do a 3-4 day F1 program. Would I be able to other training on the side. It dosen't matter what it is. I just need to work out very hard to feel good mentally.

Like maybe do GST in the morning, focusing on quality over quantity. I will se this as skill training, not going only going 70-80% untill my tendons get stronger. And then, some full body stuff in the evening.

Another way that might work is to split up the workouts from F1 into 2. I do the straight arm stuff in the morning,  again, focusing on quality. And then incorporating the core exercises and pull/dips in the evening because I feel I can go all out on them. I have been doing weighted chins and dips for years now so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

So would that work? Need to train both smart and hard.

You need patience.

There's no way to know exactly what your body can handle without going out and trying different things. There are two ways to try to 'dial in' the optimal level of work: you can aim high, get injured, heal, aim a little lower, get injured again, heal again, ad infinatum until you find a level of work that is suitable for your body. This will satisfy your psychological need to push yourself to your limits, but it will result in slower overall progress and many weeks worth of down time while you recover from your injuries. Or you can lowball the volume/intensity to start, and gradually build it up. You may have to suffer through a few weeks or months of feeling like you're holding yourself back, but overall this path is much shorter and less likely to result in serious damage to your body. 

Foundation's exercises are not easy to do at the volume prescribed with correct form. If you follow the Foundation program to the letter, you will reach a point where it taxes your mind and body to the limit. But first you need to put in some time to find the right amount of work for you.