Returning From Back Strain

Sorry I'm a little late on the topic...

I'm concerned that exercises such as Jefferson Curls could end up stretching ligaments rather than muscles (especially at my age of 15, where my bones are growing faster than my tendons and ligaments), resulting in "loose jointedness", which can cause osteoarthritis. Thomas Kurz, the author of Stretching Scientifically, is wary even of any lower back stretches that are performed from a standing position because the weight of the upper body can put too much stress on the ligaments. To Coach Sommer (or anyone with experience regarding the issue): In your experience, is putting strain on the ligaments of a joint harmful, and if so, how does one distinguish between maintaining healthy mobility and potentially damaging a joint?

Daniel

Dan, you're the man. For being interested in your health and fitness at a young age. !!! Brought to you by Carls Juniorâ„¢.

Jefferson curls are not a stretch, nor should they be used as one. Utilizing your full range of motion is not a stretch, it is moving through the entire range you are designed to be able to move through. Don't try to move the whole way through the range at first, just increase a little each time. Don't try to touch your toes, and don't go for broke, this isn't Vegas!(Or Street Fighter Alpha 3!) Only take this to the point that you start to feel a stretch. That's not the same thing as muscle tension. To find out where that is, start stretching your hamstrings with a standing straight leg stretch. See where you get to in your stretch? Don't go quite that far. The end. *applause*

Encore: Don't try to go that far at first either. Start with 10 or 15 lbs, and work towards being able to perform this to the point where you stretch easily, with no problem for several weeks before you start adding more weight. Or you can just not do it. It doesn't matter all that much, as long as you maintain spinal mobility. It will make you harder to hurt though. As alternatives, pressing into handstands works the exact same musculature. You can do that from a headstand as well. Go check Ido Portal's links for videos.

For all of you who are unsure what to do, just hug a weight plate or a kettlebell or anything else heavy. A sandbag. Your little sister. Whatever. A 24 pack of mountain dew. Just hug it to your mid/upper chest, somewhere on your sternum, and try to curl around it. If you decide to go through the whole range of motion, once your object/person of choice reaches your waist start lowering it down towards your feet with your hands and the arms attached to them. As you come back up, once you reach the same point that you started lowering the heavy or not-so-heavy object lift it back to your chest and return to the starting position. Repeat for the desired number of repetitions. These really helped me with back strength, they're great.

Everything's great when you ease into it, and make sure you are prepared. Tell your girlfriend that, she'll be excited!

Thank you for your replay slizzardman I'll experiment with it, and see what happens.

No problem, have fun!

I am wondering, have you heard of this curl also being called the 'loosening deadlift'? Pavel had listed it as a kind of 'Imperfection Training' in one of his books. Mentions Tommy Kono saying it leads to overcontracting of lumbars and he lowers an empty barbell in this case. Mentions that a pupil David Werner also uses it.

Also that curling vertical situp that you mention is cool, I am wondering have you ever done them using gravity boots or an inversion table? I don't have anything to hang from for someone to hold my shins so basically that is all I can think of.

I am wondering if you think one is better? There's got to be some kind of difference due to the difference in the knee angle, since when you hang by the knees they are flexed, but when you invert they could tend to be straighter. With straighter knees, if someone has tight hamstrings then could that make it harder to get up since it requires more work from the hip flexors?

Another thing is, when you hang by your knees, it probably keeps your thighs at a relatively vertical angle right? Conversely, when you hang by your ankles, I think there's some articulation where if you do bend your knees, they can come 'forward' and basically you may not have a vertical thigh which could affect the angles of the forces on hip/spine flexion right? Sort of like...

f__

...|___h

The above being hanging by the knees (f=foot h=head) versus

f

\

/___h

Hanging by the ankles.

I've never heard of vertical sit-ups being mentioned as anything, to be honest. No one ever talks about them, just like most other hard exercises like Ido's 'The Shrimp.' It's really hard, and I never heard of it until he posted his videos.

I would be a bigger fan of the gravity boots than the inversion table, personally. Your spine is supposed to flex when you sit up Having a table there isn't bad, but I'd prefer the free hanging version. I honestly think that's more of a personal preference than an actual functional preference I do mine off of a pullup tower. I use cheap yoga mats folded up for back of knee and top of foot padding, and I do my stuff!

chobbs said:

Thanks Coach ... I know these as cat arches and cat lifts from yoga. I haven't had much luck with them in the past done within the yoga routines, but hopefully integrated with the rest of the prehab I will get some progress out of them. I am going to add them to my steady state routine that I posted the other day in my morning prehab, 2 sets of 10.

My flexibility is the least responsive aspect of my routines. Over the last few years I have tried methods from Pavel's "Relax Into Stretch", Yoga, Bob Cooley's Meridian Stretching (aka Resistance stretching), foam rolling, Yamuna body rolling, and even rolfing. The only thing that gave even marginal progress was the resistance stretching ... but even that came to a standstill after the first few weeks (although the flexibility gained in that time period I still have - I just got no better or worse going forward).

- Chris

I'd say just one thing Chobb - If you stick with yoga for some time it gives very subtle & gradual strength & flexibility. It will definitely not have quick results.

crashnburn said:

I'd say just one thing Chobb - If you stick with yoga for some time it gives very subtle & gradual strength & flexibility. It will definitely not have quick results.

Yeah, nothing seems to give even reasonable results for me in regards to flexibility/mobility. I would give each thing I tried a few months before moving along to the next approach. Never expected anything amazing, but something of substance should have come out of a few months of effort.

I have had the best luck so far with a combination of Intu-Flow and Prasara yoga from Scott Sonnon. Still nothing amazing, but there has been some improvement. I took a break from all strength training for the last 4 months (a few excursions with some bodyweight exercises aside) to focus on improving these issues with those programs.

At times it feels like it isn't worth it and my body is never going to change as regards my ROM. It would be so easy to slink back to pure strength training and forego all of this frustration. But, my back strain was a good wakeup call. I will probably be old and useless by the time I get my mobility issues squared away, but at least I won't be injured.

- Chris

Who you are learning Yoga from, what school of thought they are (new age v/s serious traditionals) and how you define your goals with them make the whole difference.

I never thought I could do the kinds of Yoga poses that I do now. Crazy range of acrobatic flexibilities... almost

You want evidence of really out of shape people who've got success.. There was this super obese big guy on this forum and his pictures, and I was shocked what he had slowly grown to be able to do. I can link to his pics if you are so interested.

crashnburn said:

Who you are learning Yoga from, what school of thought they are (new age v/s serious traditionals) and how you define your goals with them make the whole difference.

I never thought I could do the kinds of Yoga poses that I do now. Crazy range of acrobatic flexibilities... almost

You want evidence of really out of shape people who've got success.. There was this super obese big guy on this forum and his pictures, and I was shocked what he had slowly grown to be able to do. I can link to his pics if you are so interested.

I'm interested. Those kinds of stories are always inspiring.

crashnburn said:

You want evidence of really out of shape people who've got success.. There was this super obese big guy on this forum and his pictures, and I was shocked what he had slowly grown to be able to do. I can link to his pics if you are so interested.

I'm not out of shape or obese, but definitely interested in any success stories especially as regards mobility (which is my curse). Please link it.

- Chris

Guys, I searched a lot on the site but I cant remember the name of the obese turned flexible guy doing Yoga.

His pics and log is present somewhere on giveittomeraw.com

Chris, reading back through this thread I'm kind of surprised to read that after a year now of prehab, rehab, yoga, flexibility work, etc. that you don't feel as though you have increased your range of motion appreciably. As it seems that you have particular issues extending your ROM and haven't had success with traditional methods I would suggest that you invest either in private yoga sessions or some form of massage therapy, such as Thai massage.

I don't know if I'd consider myself motivation but in two years of dedicated post-workout stretching sessions (and a VERY little yoga thrown in) I've gone from standard gym rat flexibility to straight leg front splits. That wasn't my ultimate goal but that's just where it seemed to end up so far... And just so you know I do a four stretch routine lasting either 10 or 20 minutes. Simple.

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=2895&start=15#p20718

http://gymnasticbodies.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3126#p21950

Diamond Dallas Page YRGworkout.com

Pretty amazing transformation.

Thanks for the links guys. Good to see so many making great strides with Coach's material.

jl5555 said:

Chris, reading back through this thread I'm kind of surprised to read that after a year now of prehab, rehab, yoga, flexibility work, etc. that you don't feel as though you have increased your range of motion appreciably. As it seems that you have particular issues extending your ROM and haven't had success with traditional methods I would suggest that you invest either in private yoga sessions or some form of massage therapy, such as Thai massage.

Not nearly as surprised as me. However, looking at where I started and the things I tried it really shouldn't be that surprising I suppose. The biggest problem seems to be a super high level of residual tension - aka dense muscles. With this in mind the massage therapy might have been a better place to start although w/o addressing the why it would probably revert back again (I didn't have much luck with an ROLF practicioner I worked with and this may have been the reason).

I had a session with a CST coach in my area the other day and we worked on some SMR (self myofascial release) techniques - which are basically accomplishing for myself the same thing as a good massage therapist would. I had practiced those previously, but results were minimal during sesssions and never carried forward. Turns out I was holding nowhere near long enough for my body to release. I also used a clubbell instead of a foam roller as the density was needed to get things going.

With the coach there to guide me I got to actually feel the release so many yammer on about, but it took between 1-2 minutes in a position for it to happen. After the first few my body started to get the cue and subsequent release took much less time, but still way past the 30 seconds I often see prescribed.

I am planning to dedicate some serious time during my next 4 week cycle (which starts tomorrow) to rolling and see if it one of the missing keys in my mobility pursuits. I do think there is something of value there as when I got back home from my session the other day my wife grabbed my arm and was amazed at how pliable it was (which for me is pretty amazing especially since she had no idea what I was working on with the coach). Hopefully the results will carry over and the combination of yoga and joint-mobility work will help let me body know it doesn't need to bring that tension back.

- Chris

Almost a couple years later and still struggling with the same things. However I am much closer to a solution and it appears to have little, if anything, to do with flexibility/mobility training!

After attending HardStyle Ventura this last November I received a recommendation and therefore sought out somebody to run me through the SFMA to try and pinpoint where my issue with lack of progress lies. Found out my lower abs are not activating at all during movements! From a prior chiropractic visit I know that I have no L5 (it is naturally fused with my S1) so it puts me in slight anterior tilt, in and of itself, and may be contributing to why my lower abs never naturally activated. In any case, almost all of my core is being supported by other muscles. All of the training I have done just furthered this dysfunction.

As for the systemic tightness, it was explained to me that as my core stability was lacking other muscles were tightening up to do the job. I was never going to get that tension to let go much as my body didn't have enough stability without it.

So, now I am working to learn how to use that lower ab area during my movements and bring the strength of that region up to par with the rest of my body. I feel so very weak at the moment - learning to use an area that has been neglected virtually my whole athletic life is quite challenging.

I see much has changed here since I attended that first GB Seminar. One of the most important aspects I noted was a posting by slizzardman on a basic set of FSP requirements before tackling the other movements. Interestingly it was almost all core related in what was required. My current situation really drives home how important this aspect is to being able to progress.

I had done core work in the past, but without it actually hitting the appropriate area I was still essentially spinning my wheels - or more realistically setting myself up for further injury by increasing the discrepancy in muscle balance.

Being a naturally strong individual often makes it difficult to see a weakness - the body is remarkably adept at compensation and using other strong muscles to achieve movement goals. My inability to achieve a basic pilates type roll-up, or even a deck squat, should have been clues as to the weakness in the core being the fundamental problem. This is especially true as both of those movements are achievable when I anchor my legs for the roll-up, or hold a weight in my hands for the deck squat, so the mobility is there.

It seems obvious typing it out now ... but I missed it entirely for multiple years and thousands of wasted dollars seeing various professionals. I don't have a happy ending to post yet, but I feel closer than ever to sorting these things out. Hopefully my mistake might help somebody else in a similar boat.

- Chris

Wow! What a story, thanks for the update.

I'm glad you finally found out what is wrong with you, hopefully you can condition and get back to where you started! Best of luck to you.

Nice post Chris. Sometimes i think there is a bit of good luck involved with finding part of the solution to a major problem.

The basic core work, plank, hollow body hold, and hollow body rock will absolutely help you strengthen your core. It takes some patience and the ability to just admit - you are weak (at least in this area) the strength will come.

Thanks guys. It has definitely entailed some luck, and a dogged persistence in chasing down the real problem. I had done prior movement screens and assessments, but the other areas picked up the slack for me during those tests. I needed the isolation of that area to be called into play to see the issue.

Now I need to struggle through linking the activation of this area to all of my movements. It sucks because it makes every movement much, much more difficult as I am basically adding a new link in the chain that is not up to the strength of the others. It is mentally exhausting to train in this manner and not fall back to the prior patterns. Also, as things have always been this way for me I don't know if I will ever be out of this mental carefulness that I currently require in the movements There is relief at knowing the main issue, but a lot of uncertainty still to sort out.

- Chris

Before I began BTGB I found that my lower back problems could often be resolved by using the Iranian Endurance Exercise. I can recommend it as a therapy to be at least considered by anyone who has lower back problems. It seems to sort out my own back fairly rapidly. However, even if it brings relief many people will still need to address at some point the issues raised by Coach Sommer regarding mobility (including me!).

Anyway, here's a link to some information on the Iranian Endurance Exercise and the research that led to it:

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/arc ... cises.html

Nice!

Endurance is always what matters most with health, interestingly enough. Nearly all postural muscles are slow twitch in nature.

That probably has a lot to do with why people following the GB program according to the numbers (60s holds) tend to feel much better than they did when they were lifting weights.

This also makes an excellent case for NEVER ditching the long holds entirely. Arch hold forever!

Great article! Sure seems an awful lot like the Arch Body Hold!

Are we supposed to add weight to the bar if you have not devolped full rom? more specific 6" past the toes?