So the question is just that. Will there be a difference in performance if you repeat movements consistently or vary them each day? The WOD is a good example for varied, I notice the movement aren't repeated very often (yes I know it's still structured). So if you train evenly with pulling/pressing/straight-arm/bent-arm etc, will your results be just as good with varied exercises compared to say an A and B workout to repeat the same movements several times a week?
Repeated Against Varying Exercise Selection
Started by FLeXi, March 20, 2013 · 14 Replies · 3,405 Views
Depends on what your focus is. Training the same movement every work out will accelerate the progress of that movement. It also can create deficiencies if not balanced with other movements. It can also help balance out muscle deficiencies if you train the right movement.
Strength gains can and will carry over to other skills.
Well I know sticking to routine exercises will give good results. But my question is more favoring the idea of varied exercises because personally I enjoy training various movements rather than a select few. For instance today I focused on vertical pull/press with hespu and slow assisted oac negatives, along with a couple other things. Tomorrow I'll either be focusing on straight arm work or horizontal pull/press. If I structure the outline of my routine and not specific exercises, is this a slower way of progressing than having a strict routine?
The more you focus on a set of movements (or static for that matter), the better your body will adapt to that movement and thus require less effort to sustain that movement. As such, it is important to change the stimuli every so often in order for continuously force your body to adapt to those changes.
Under Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength, because the program uses linear progression (increasing the poundage every single workout session), you body is forced to adapt to new stimuli every workout. However, the program always advocate to continually do this as long as you maintain proper form. in essence, you have "mastered" that stimuli for that set/rep scheme and should progress to the next.
Callisthenics are no different, however, Coach's definition of mastery is stringent, and we are recommended to adapt ourselves to achieve a skill/movement/static hold for a certain period of time. Our bodies will adapt to the point where the effort required to meet that demand is lesser and lesser each week, until the point where we will be making little gains to continue with that progression, however we will have ensured we would have ingrained the proper CNS adaptations to not "forget" how to stay in those positions in more complex movements. An example of this would be to make sure we have a hollow position in a more complex position such as the handstand.
If I've missed something or mixed up concepts by accident, please help me understand the underlying principles. 
I also think that we just have to trust that Coach knows what he's doing, and that this is the right way to go if one's goal is to progress to well-rounded gymnastic strength.
When one joins a gymnastics gym, a rowing club, an MMA gym or any high level training facility with experienced, professional trainers, it's usually counterproductive (and often frowned upon) to question the training that's being prescribed. A coach doesn't have to explain why he's making his athletes do something. They've presumably joined his program because they trust his experience, though they're obviously free to leave if they don't like his approach. As much as one would like to know the reasoning behind a coach's approach and then intellectualize about whether it makes sense based on the latest fads or research findings, there's no substitute for practical experience in these cases, and the only real way to assess if you should join a club and submit yourself blindly to the prescribed training is to look at the coach's track record via his or her current and past athletes.
Coach Sommer's athletes appear to be more than enough evidence of his qualifications. The situation here is unfortunately a little bit more complicated in that his athletes did not solely do F1 and H1 during the course of their development. However, given the lack of other comprehensive home adult gymnastic strength programs out there that have been developed by highly qualified gymnastics coaches, we don't really have a choice other than to give this a fair shot and see where it takes us.
Hopefully, a few years from now, people will be able to look at our cohort's results and make a more informed decision about whether this program is indeed a worthwhile investment of their time. In the meantime, I'm happy to be one of the guinea pigs!
M
Well I wasn't specifically talking about Coach's methods. I used his set WOD as an example of varied exercises. As you can see the WOD template goes through many different exercises from week to week. It's not focused on using one set of exercises several days per week. So I've gotten two answers that are opposites. Focus on routine exercises, and Coach's methods (if I recall, he uses the WOD for his athletes). Remember, I'm not asking about his specific schedule or that I'm planning on using the WOD. I simply asked about varied exercises vs routine.
I could take a stab myself and say since his WOD setup is focused on many exercises in specific orders/times that varied exercises works just fine and results will come just as good as any other. I just wanted opinions on NOT doing an A,B routine for 2 months. I myself enjoy the variation. If anyone wants to comment further with some insight as to how the body adapts when you use a multitude of different exercises I'd be interested in that. Is it just a matter of tension on the muscles instead of movement itself?
I can see there is a lot of confusion in this thread. Ill explain what I know of coach's methods and then elaborate on the use of exercise variation.
First of all the WOD is a intermediate workout. Intermediate by gymnastic strength standards is actually quite advanced. It is not like other methods where intermediate is just simply after the body can no longer adapt on a simple weekly variation. With that said you have to consider the audience of the WODs. It was meant as a preparation advice and was thought that people could or would master the exercises contained therein without the prep that his athletes had already had as very young gymnasts. This meant that going into the WODS people should really have mastery of most of the elements in the WOD and just catch up on the rest. This WOD is more conditioning work for intermediate gymnasts or people of equal strength level.
What the Foundation and to a lesser extent the Kilroy template do is provide the steps to get mastery. You see you do not want a lot of variation in this method of training. You need to focus on the movement to master it. This means not varying exercises. This provides faster gains so that you can develop the foundation necessary for more advanced training. Then and only then should you use a conditioning scheme found in the WOD. I would like to say that the Foundation series is quite advanced in itself by non gymnast standards and will provide exactly what you need in regards to strength gains.
The static strength cycles are also a more intermediate method of gaining strength. I personally never really used them for basic movements. But for more advanced elements it could be used.
I suggest that people exercise patience and do the Foundation series. Varying workouts might be "fun" but the slower progress will become frustrating quickly for anyone who wants more and has long term goals.
This is basically how you should approach the methods given by coach as I understand it. If I have misunderstood it then I am sure that coach with make it clear.
Well, every time I see someone lost on here someone advises the WOD. If it was only used as conditioning I don't think this would be the case. If I'm not mistaken I've seen a lot of "beginners" being drawn towards the WOD as a good place to start especially if they don't know how to construct a routine or have specific goals. Maybe someone who knows more about the WOD can fill in or correct us.
Maybe you misunderstand the use of conditioning. By conditioning I mean strength conditioning. Beginners should not use the WOD, which is why it has been taken away for now. The Foundation series shows you exactly how to construct a routine as did the kilroy template. Foundation even gives specific goals. Anyone who suggests the WOD for a beginner is either not knowledgeable enough or has overestimated the level of preparation of the person they recommended it to. Scaling the WOD would bring limited progress but not like what they would have if following the Foundation series. This is precisely because of too much variation for a beginner.
Daniel Burnham said:I can see there is a lot of confusion in this thread. Ill explain what I know of coach's methods and then elaborate on the use of exercise variation.
First of all the WOD is a intermediate workout. Intermediate by gymnastic strength standards is actually quite advanced. It is not like other methods where intermediate is just simply after the body can no longer adapt on a simple weekly variation. With that said you have to consider the audience of the WODs. It was meant as a preparation advice and was thought that people could or would master the exercises contained therein without the prep that his athletes had already had as very young gymnasts. This meant that going into the WODS people should really have mastery of most of the elements in the WOD and just catch up on the rest. This WOD is more conditioning work for intermediate gymnasts or people of equal strength level.
What the Foundation and to a lesser extent the Kilroy template do is provide the steps to get mastery. You see you do not want a lot of variation in this method of training. You need to focus on the movement to master it. This means not varying exercises. This provides faster gains so that you can develop the foundation necessary for more advanced training. Then and only then should you use a conditioning scheme found in the WOD. I would like to say that the Foundation series is quite advanced in itself by non gymnast standards and will provide exactly what you need in regards to strength gains.
The static strength cycles are also a more intermediate method of gaining strength. I personally never really used them for basic movements. But for more advanced elements it could be used.
I suggest that people exercise patience and do the Foundation series. Varying workouts might be "fun" but the slower progress will become frustrating quickly for anyone who wants more and has long term goals.
This is basically how you should approach the methods given by coach as I understand it. If I have misunderstood it then I am sure that coach with make it clear.
This is an excellent post Daniel; I am out of "like" ammo, but I like it
FLeXi said:Well, every time I see someone lost on here someone advises the WOD. If it was only used as conditioning I don't think this would be the case. If I'm not mistaken I've seen a lot of "beginners" being drawn towards the WOD as a good place to start especially if they don't know how to construct a routine or have specific goals. Maybe someone who knows more about the WOD can fill in or correct us.
I'm assuming you've read Daniel and Zach's replies.
When the WOD was all we had, that's where we sent people, but we ended up having to basically explain to people how they needed to go about reducing the difficulty to the level of F1.
You should also realize that we have been guiding people to the foundation work for a long time. At first it was just the first few steps, because that was the only glimpse that was publicly available. We also told people to be patient while these new products were still under development, and that once here their problems would be solved. Well, GB has delivered.
The moment that F1 became available to the general public, we have been telling people to get it and start there, for one simple reason: Most people here haven't mastered even the most rudimentary basics. Therefore, that's where they should start.
Perhaps you have missed a lot of those conversations, but they are all over the place.
Now, there's no problem. We all know that it's time to get to work on our Foundation, and that's what we all need to focus on. We have a clear message, an excellent set of products to guide people down a surefire road to success, and a supportive community to handle any technical issues that arise.
It's time to stop asking questions about the past and start training for our futures.
FLeXi said:I enjoy training various movements rather than a select few.
I think "I enjoy" is YOUR key word here. If you dont enjoy whatever it is you are doing it will not last for long.
That being said, before F1 arrived, I did Wods for a period and then tried more specific exercises på a period and I cant say one or the other was more effective.
Now I´m doing F1 and H1 and they are varied, fun and goal specifc.
Do what you enjoy. This will keep you going and also give you results.
You're correct I've missed a lot on here, I've been off for quite some time. I get to that point where I start thinking like mad and I just ask questions, now is one of those crazy times. So instead of buying F1 right this second to find out what's in there (I most likely will at some point, just not now), one last question is towards what's written in BtGB under basic strength. This is written:
"For example; training day 1 could be a curl
variation, training day 2 could be a row variation, training day 3 could be a
pull-up variation, training day 4 could be a MPPu variation and training day 5
would begin the rotation again back at curl variations."
Now, this suggests that there are 4 variations of pulls, presses, etc, for each week. Is this being over-ruled in F1? Or is this still a good protocol to follow. This is all I've been asking in this thread, nothing more. I'm not saying I'm going to never repeat a movement within each month. Most of the time I train certain movements such as MU, pull-ups, and static positions several times a week. I'm just saying having more than just "this for day 1, this for day 2, and repeat.
HAHAHAHA
Zach Armijo said:... But the thing you will not have is the integrated mobility which is so f'ing amazing, I should have named my son Integrated Mobility.
FLeXi said:You're correct I've missed a lot on here, I've been off for quite some time. I get to that point where I start thinking like mad and I just ask questions, now is one of those crazy times. So instead of buying F1 right this second to find out what's in there (I most likely will at some point, just not now), one last question is towards what's written in BtGB under basic strength. This is written:
"For example; training day 1 could be a curl
variation, training day 2 could be a row variation, training day 3 could be a
pull-up variation, training day 4 could be a MPPu variation and training day 5
would begin the rotation again back at curl variations."
Now, this suggests that there are 4 variations of pulls, presses, etc, for each week. Is this being over-ruled in F1? Or is this still a good protocol to follow. This is all I've been asking in this thread, nothing more. I'm not saying I'm going to never repeat a movement within each month. Most of the time I train certain movements such as MU, pull-ups, and static positions several times a week. I'm just saying having more than just "this for day 1, this for day 2, and repeat.
My best answer to that is that the core of your training should be the F1 and H1. They aren't going to wreck you, so you can always do a set of yewkis, inverted pull ups, and XR supports for warm up or cool down one day; XR curls, FL rows, and chest rolls another, etc.
Obviously if you never had good form in something, you shouldn't be doing it at all, but if you're like me and have good form on all the multiplane pulls, you won't lose anything by putting a set of a few BtGB movements at the beginning or end of your workout.
The key is to remember that F1 and H1 are the workout, and that these other exercises are for fun (with good form) and maintenance.
The focus should always be on Foundation work until F4 is mastered, but that doesn't mean you can't do other things. Just keep them from pushing you into overtraining or detracting from your foundation work.