Antonio Boyer Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I just recently realized that I could hook up my rings to the assisted pull up machine at the gym. I like it even more then a dream machine because you can pick how many pounds of assistance you want and its easier to measure progress this way. My question is should I be doing this before having the cross prerequisites? I cant do a ring handstand, or any planche variation on rings. I have foundation one and handstand one, I know I should probably be focusing on that instead. I just really want the big biceps that come from iron cross training lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Burnham Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 That type of thinking is the quickest way to injury. Your body will put muscle on in response to stimulus. You will build plenty of bicep strength with the foundation series. And if you eat correctly you ill also gain mass. Then after you have mastered that you can start to work on ring strength and cross training in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 That type of thinking is the quickest way to injury. Your body will put muscle on in response to stimulus. You will build plenty of bicep strength with the foundation series. And if you eat correctly you ill also gain mass. Then after you have mastered that you can start to work on ring strength and cross training in time.you don't think there could be any benefit from training assisted crosses in a measured controlled way? people say that doing weighted dips has helped them achieve planche. Since an iron cross fly is basically a hard straight arm dip, I was thinking that doing these on the pull up machine could have similar strength transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 this guy also thinks that iron cross training helped his ring planche. https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/10449-tuck-pl-on-rings-form/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Burnham Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 you don't think there could be any benefit from training assisted crosses in a measured controlled way? people say that doing weighted dips has helped them achieve planche. Since an iron cross fly is basically a hard straight arm dip, I was thinking that doing these on the pull up machine could have similar strength transfer.People say a lot of things without really knowing exactly what helped them. Also people have different specific weaknesses, don't assume what helped someone else will automatically help you too. With those things said, i do think there is benefit. Straight arm ring strength will carry over to other straight arm ring strength skills. This is why coach recommends planche work before iron cross as it adds to the strength and preparation. Coach has listed the straight arm progressions, follow those and don't skip ahead. Also straight arm work on the rings should only be done once you have properly prepared. This means finishing the foundation series. Bent arm strength is less demanding but prepares the joints. This is what you need to focus on NOW. The program is laid out in a way to ensure that injury from not performing the correct progressions don't happen. Generally what I see is someone decides they just want to work cross specifically and finds that it works well in the beginning with whatever assistance they use. Then as they try to decrease the assistance and increase volume, injury starts to repeatedly occur. It happens often. In fact I saw someone hurt themselves yesterday in a competition warmup. I asked them their conditioning and they had done basically the same thing. Not enough proper preparation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 People say a lot of things without really knowing exactly what helped them. Also people have different specific weaknesses, don't assume what helped someone else will automatically help you too. With those things said, i do think there is benefit. Straight arm ring strength will carry over to other straight arm ring strength skills. This is why coach recommends planche work before iron cross as it adds to the strength and preparation. Coach has listed the straight arm progressions, follow those and don't skip ahead. Also straight arm work on the rings should only be done once you have properly prepared. This means finishing the foundation series. Bent arm strength is less demanding but prepares the joints. This is what you need to focus on NOW. The program is laid out in a way to ensure that injury from not performing the correct progressions don't happen. Generally what I see is someone decides they just want to work cross specifically and finds that it works well in the beginning with whatever assistance they use. Then as they try to decrease the assistance and increase volume, injury starts to repeatedly occur. It happens often. In fact I saw someone hurt themselves yesterday in a competition warmup. I asked them their conditioning and they had done basically the same thing. Not enough proper preparation.Ok thanks for the advice. One last question. What about doing the assisted crosses just enough to achieve a ring tuck planche, and then after that focusing on ring tuck planche? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Burnham Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I wouldn't focus on it. The best thing for ring tuck planche is ring tuck planche and the progressions associated with it. Get a good planche on ground firstly to ensure you have the strength for the position. Then get good support strength on rings. Ring handstand and l-sit will also help you develop the straight arm locking strength needed. After that start to lift the hips while keeping the arms locked. Really focus on the locking. I see a lot of people who allow a bend. Even a slight one will hold you back. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 I wouldn't focus on it. The best thing for ring tuck planche is ring tuck planche and the progressions associated with it. Get a good planche on ground firstly to ensure you have the strength for the position. Then get good support strength on rings. Ring handstand and l-sit will also help you develop the straight arm locking strength needed. After that start to lift the hips while keeping the arms locked. Really focus on the locking. I see a lot of people who allow a bend. Even a slight one will hold you back. ok thanks. I'm just going to follow coaches programing and get every thing else of my mind. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 I just recently realized that I could hook up my rings to the assisted pull up machine at the gym. I like it even more then a dream machine because you can pick how many pounds of assistance you want and its easier to measure progress this way. My question is should I be doing this before having the cross prerequisites? I cant do a ring handstand, or any planche variation on rings. I have foundation one and handstand one, I know I should probably be focusing on that instead. I just really want the big biceps that come from iron cross training lol Iron cross training does not give you big biceps. Big biceps are required to safely do iron cross training. I have done a lot of counter-weight work over the past several years. My opinion is that as a strength training tool it's largely inferior to doing easier movements with full-bodyweight. A counterweight system is useful if you have done the preparation necessary to begin learning a skill, but need assistance while you're learning it, and/or want to work it at a lower intensity. The rule of thumb that I use for myself is that if I am using a counterweight of 30% bodyweight or more for low-intensity work, I'm probably not ready to be seriously working the movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 4, 2013 Share Posted March 4, 2013 Following the Foundation programming is definitely the best way to go, especially if you are serious about achieving real strength goals like IC. It is nice to have no stress from trying to figure everything out... Coach has got his system down pretty tight, and at this point it really is plug and play... you do the work, day by day, as listed, and you get the results you want (and more). The form tips that Daniel shared are really important, so as you progress through the Foundation program you will want to make sure that you never let your elbows bend even a little during something like a planche lean or tuck PL work, when you get to those levels. I definitely agree that this is not anywhere close to the time, in your development, where you should even begin to think about simulating advanced strength maneuvers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 4, 2013 Author Share Posted March 4, 2013 Following the Foundation programming is definitely the best way to go, especially if you are serious about achieving real strength goals like IC. It is nice to have no stress from trying to figure everything out... Coach has got his system down pretty tight, and at this point it really is plug and play... you do the work, day by day, as listed, and you get the results you want (and more). The form tips that Daniel shared are really important, so as you progress through the Foundation program you will want to make sure that you never let your elbows bend even a little during something like a planche lean or tuck PL work, when you get to those levels. I definitely agree that this is not anywhere close to the time, in your development, where you should even begin to think about simulating advanced strength maneuvers.thanks im going to start taking it more seriously starting today. only doing h1, f1, and nothing else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 hey this just popped into my mind, hope one of you can answer. Doesn't coach have an article about how bodybuilders can learn iron cross? why don't they have to learn planche first? I thought doing so was necessary for it to be safe? I don't think coach would tell bodybuilders to learn iron cross with dumbbells if it wasn't safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Naterman Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 That was written like 8 years ago. You kind of have to think about the timeline between then and now. Just like all the rest of us, he has changed his recommended approach for adults (and his own athletes) because he learns from his experiences. That is part of what makes him such a great coach, and is also why we have the Foundation series today. His experiences with all of us adults made him realize that we're a lot weaker and less prepared than he thought we were, and over the last 5 years he has been actively refining his approach to adult Gymnastic Strength Training™. The last year and a half have been testing and tweaking of what has been released as the Foundation series, and literally everyone has seen much better results than any of us have expected. Coach would never write that article today, just as I would never write some of my posts from 3-4 years ago today. If that doesn't make sense, I don't think I can help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klaudius Petrulis Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 If you want to train biceps you can always do weighted chin-ups.. Doing anything tricky like iron cross training with novice joints won't turn out well IMHO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antonio Boyer Posted March 5, 2013 Author Share Posted March 5, 2013 That was written like 8 years ago. You kind of have to think about the timeline between then and now. Just like all the rest of us, he has changed his recommended approach for adults (and his own athletes) because he learns from his experiences. That is part of what makes him such a great coach, and is also why we have the Foundation series today. His experiences with all of us adults made him realize that we're a lot weaker and less prepared than he thought we were, and over the last 5 years he has been actively refining his approach to adult Gymnastic Strength Training™. The last year and a half have been testing and tweaking of what has been released as the Foundation series, and literally everyone has seen much better results than any of us have expected. Coach would never write that article today, just as I would never write some of my posts from 3-4 years ago today. If that doesn't make sense, I don't think I can help you.ok that makes sense, I understand and agree with everyones recommendations. Just thought id ask about that article because I want to be the most informed that I can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noel Shevchenko Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 using dream machine for ic training before prerequisites for it, would be bad as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshua Slocum Posted March 5, 2013 Share Posted March 5, 2013 using dream machine for ic training before prerequisites for it, would be bad as well? If you're just messing around in a dream machine every once in a while, and you have the strength to do full front and back levers, you should be fine. If you can't do a full lever you might be putting more strain on your arms than they are prepared for. Using a dream machine for strength training is not an optimal training strategy. If you're at a level where you need the dream machine to perform a skill, your time would be more efficiently spent mastering other exercises at full bodyweight. It is always preferable to do full bodyweight work over assisted work. The only time I would recommend assisted work is when you meet the prerequisites for a skill and are trying to learn it, or when you are warming up for a skill and there are no easier variations of the movement. In short, dream machines are best used for playing on, helping you learn a skill you already meet the prerequisites for, or warming up before more serious strength work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blairbob Posted March 6, 2013 Share Posted March 6, 2013 No! when you can do the levers and are along in the planche and ring hs, ok occasional screwing around maybe, but i wouldnt let any of my gymnasts do it on a training basis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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