MN/PE2 Preparation

Looking at the MN/PE2 movement I can see where the flexibility required is really going to be a problem for me. I tried some straddle hip flexor lifts today and only managed to get my legs an inch or two off of the ground.  So I did a few sets of the lifts leaning back at a 45 degree angle and that worked a bit better.

Is there anything else I should be doing to address this weak link before I get to the MN/PE2 movement? Or is it just expected that our ROM at the start of the cycle will be that poor and simply improve over the 12 weeks?

- Chris

Good question.  I'm sure you'll get another (more thorough) answer, but from what I've read the recommendation (assuming you've really mastered MN/PE1) is to start at the beginning of PE1, focus on really compressing at the top of the movement, and add in supplemental mobility work at the end of your workout as long as it doesn't interfere with the prescribed Mi movements.  

I was in the same boat, but I decided that I could still improve some on PE1 (less momentum, more compression, etc), so that's where I am at the moment.  I plan on adding in some mobility from PE2 after my workouts to get a jumpstart on the flexibility issue.  

Cole also suggested a useful mobility drill where you place your legs on a wall in the desired finish position, and alternate stretching there and attempting to sit up.  

I've had this question answered by Coach Sommers - see the thread here: https://www.gymnasticbodies.com/forum/topic/10281-mnpe2-straddle-up-question/

Yeah Cannister, your thread is what prompted me to check my own ability with that movement. I had initially thought that MN/PE1 would fully prep us for MN/PE2, but it seems that isn't always the case.

Currently, I am in fact doing a full cycle with MN/PE1. I figured if one could have mastery of that level yet still have issues with the straddle portion that I would check to see if there was something I could, or should, be doing now to help prepare.

I guess what isn't completely clear to me is whether it is perfectly normal to start the cycle with such a short amount of ROM and gain it over the course of the cycle, or if we should be addressing these weak points first so that we can start the cycle much closer to the target.

Regarding the mobility drills, it looks like MN/PE1>iM is preparing us for MN/PE2 and MN/PE2>iM is preparing us for MN/PE3. So it is possible after another 9 weeks of windmills that things could change significantly for me in regards to ROM. But I feel like my windmill is pretty solid right now so where the improvement will come from isn't obvious to me. I may have to revisit and experiment with my form to see if I can get it hitting my hamstrings more than it currently does.

Thanks for relaying Cole's suggestion Steve. I will have to play around with that one as well.

- Chris

- Many of you are beginning with F1 with a moderate degree of strength, but surprisingly limited mobility.  

- Note however that mobility and strength go hand and hand with GST.  You cannot have one without the other.

- So for many of you, iM will need to be your primary focus for the first training cycle or two at a minimum.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

I don't know if it's THAT surprising, for some of us

*goes off to stretch, knowing he is one of those with limited mobility*    

Coach Sommer said:

- Many of you are beginning with F1 with a moderate degree of strength, but surprisingly limited mobility.  

 

- Note however that mobility and strength go hand and hand with GST.  You cannot have one without the other.

 

- So for many of you, iM will need to be your primary focus for the first training cycle or two at a minimum.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

That would definitely be why I am sitting back here at PE1 across the board. Given my history I really needed to take it from the top.

With that last point, about focusing on the iM do you mean repeating the entire 12 week cycle at the given level, adding extra iM to the end of the session, or something else entirely?

Also if you could clarify the starting ROM aspect that would be great - should we have a reasonable semblance of the movement at the start of the cycle, or is it expected and okay to start it anyway?

- Chris

Coach Sommer said:

- Many of you are beginning with F1 with a moderate degree of strength, but surprisingly limited mobility.  

 

- Note however that mobility and strength go hand and hand with GST.  You cannot have one without the other.

 

- So for many of you, iM will need to be your primary focus for the first training cycle or two at a minimum.

 

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

Sticky this, quote this, pin it on my forehead and paste it atop my doors.  This sums it up so nicely, thanks Coach.

I chuckle to myself every time I think about coach's comment that, being somewhat accustomed to dealing with high performing athletes, he was sometimes surprised at the lack of flexibility in the general population which, in many cases, "borders on pathology".  It's a very apt description, and I found it amusing in the "Oh, he's talking about me" kind of way.

Although the flexibility/strength balance issue has been a point of difficulty for me, the holistic nature of physical development one enjoys is one of my favorite things about GST.  

No doubt. Years of various sports form us to those sports in ways we never really consider. There is a reason people can identify the sports one partakes in simply from watching their movement patterns. Undoing those tissue changes is quite the battle.

- Chris

It's not just the tissue changes. Movement patterns are stored in the brain, reprogramming takes time.

Nic Branson said:

It's not just the tissue changes. Movement patterns are stored in the brain, reprogramming takes time.

exactly my issue with mn/PE1 right now ...

chobbs said:

No doubt. Years of various sports form us to [..]

Very generous of you to say 'sports'. In my case, I can point at the particular way my body automatically slouches into a chair in front of a computer for many of my issues. (c:

thanners said:

Very generous of you to say 'sports'. In my case, I can point at the particular way my body automatically slouches into a chair in front of a computer for many of my issues. (c:

 

Very true. SAID is something that is at play in everything we do, not just during our sport practice. However, in the scheme of things those issues are much easier to resolve as the tissue hasn't typically been exposed to loading in those positions and thus we aren't "set" to that shape as much.

- Chris

chobbs said:

Very true. SAID is something that is at play in everything we do, not just during our sport practice. However, in the scheme of things those issues are much easier to resolve as the tissue hasn't typically been exposed to loading in those positions and thus we aren't "set" to that shape as much.

 

- Chris

I have to disagree with this, I mean the primary component of many of these issues is the subconscious motor patterns that we default to, and this is a function of practice. I don't know very many people who practice their sport more than they practice their not-sport. In other words, there are very few adults, for sure, who spend more time being active in healthy movement patterns than being active in unhealthy movement patterns (slouching in a chair, for one).

What people fail to realize, as they try to re-program loaded movements, is that your body ties its reflexes to the load. You can't just go practice a wall squat and then put up 450 with perfect form. You're going to have to start with [insome cases] a stick, and then 10 lbs, and so on, and build back up through the weights with good form. Even when you can squat 250 perfectly, if you throw 300 on there you will probably revert to your old form.

Every weight has to be retrained, because either 1) your form slowly CHANGED as the weight got heavier, and so you learned bad form; or 2) You had bad form from the beginning, and all your body KNOWS is the bad form.

Going through the weights again isn't as time-consuming as the initial strength gain in most cases, but it is still a substantial time investment... one that many peoples' pride will not let them make.

Joshua Naterman said:

I have to disagree with this, I mean the primary component of many of these issues is the subconscious motor patterns that we default to, and this is a function of practice. I don't know very many people who practice their sport more than they practice their not-sport. In other words, there are very few adults, for sure, who spend more time being active in healthy movement patterns than being active in unhealthy movement patterns (slouching in a chair, for one).

When discussing faulty motor patterns and what is remembered by the body I completely agree. I was specifically referring to tissue adaptations that have occurred.

IMO non loaded tissue adaptions are easier to counteract than those that have happened under load. In the former the amount of time and strength necessary to remedy is going to be much less due to less plastic deformity having taken place.

Obviously, time factors in here though - somebody who has 20 years of poor sitting posture is likely to be worse off in regards to rectifying the postural issues than the guy who did 6 months of wrestling and has a tightended trapezious and elevated shoulders due to that. What that threshold of time > load is though I don't know. That said, I have seen numerous sedentary people resolve issues such as posture in a much shorter time than I have witnessed athletes correct sports acquired positions.

If load wasn't more important than time (reasonable loads and reasonable time - not extreme at either end), then corrective exercise would never be successful unless the person gave up their faulty pattern. Yet, there are many sports where the athlete spends hours in a certain position, yet a short duration of time spent loading the opposite motion often rectifies the problems introduced from their sport. Very seldom have I seen passive stretches successful in this regard, it is always some type of loaded movement (not always a large load but enough stress to stimulate an adaptation).

Of course I am now pulling my own thread way off topic - sorry about that folks.

- Chris

Is it normal that my hips make these pops and clunks during this exercise? The sounds are either coming from my hip flexors or the hip joint itself. Should I be worried or just continue to do the exercise? There is no pain, just the sounds.

Due to poor hip flexor strength and/or mobility you may initially need to restrict lowering down all the way at the end of each rep.  With continued training you should be able to lower deeper and deeper without hip discomfort until eventually you are able to do full ROM.

Yours in Fitness,

Coach Sommer

chobbs said:

That would definitely be why I am sitting back here at PE1 across the board. Given my history I really needed to take it from the top.

 

With that last point, about focusing on the iM do you mean repeating the entire 12 week cycle at the given level, adding extra iM to the end of the session, or something else entirely?

 

Also if you could clarify the starting ROM aspect that would be great - should we have a reasonable semblance of the movement at the start of the cycle, or is it expected and okay to start it anyway?

 

- Chris

Bumping these follow-up questions as I am afraid this got lost in the noise of our side discussion.

Can Coach, or somebody else "in the know" on this subject, comment on the above?

- Chris

chobbs said:

Bumping these follow-up questions as I am afraid this got lost in the noise of our side discussion.

 

Can Coach, or somebody else "in the know" on this subject, comment on the above?

 

- Chris

-I've begun my workouts with a few of the iM moves in which I had poor excecution, I included 10 reps of Cat cow, 10 reps of Swivel hips and 10 reps of Skiers and 10 hyper leg lifts while laying on a chair. depending on your initial ROM, perhaps warming up with a little bit more volume would help you. it's surely helped me in Mobility per se and getting the most out of my workout. 

-a lot of us are starting with more strength in some areas, more mobility in others areas and sometimes deficits of both. depending on your existing ROM or strength just focus on your "deficit" be it strength or mobility and continue the cycle as is. if at the end of the cycle you still do not have the needed mobility, repeat a cycle(I do not know which one, Coach or others can shed light on this) and reach the aspired level of mobility/strength ratio.

KeilaniG said:

-I've begun my workouts with a few of the iM moves in which I had poor excecution, I included 10 reps of Cat cow, 10 reps of Swivel hips and 10 reps of Skiers and 10 hyper leg lifts while laying on a chair. depending on your initial ROM, perhaps warming up with a little bit more volume would help you. it's surely helped me in Mobility per se and getting the most out of my workout. 

Definitely., I have been doing some targeted stretching prior to the session as well as a few other movements that improve my ROM in general. Obviously I can continue to "wing it", but if there was an official approach so to speak then I would make the requisite adjustments.

KeilaniG said:

-a lot of us are starting with more strength in some areas, more mobility in others areas and sometimes deficits of both. depending on your existing ROM or strength just focus on your "deficit" be it strength or mobility and continue the cycle as is. if at the end of the cycle you still do not have the needed mobility, repeat a cycle(I do not know which one, Coach or others can shed light on this) and reach the aspired level of mobility/strength ratio.

I am pretty good ROM-wise with the majority of the movements in the current cycle. The issue/question I had was about proper preparation for the MN/PE2 movement as it didn't seem that anything in this cycle was addressing that particular weak link for me.

However, on my last session, I wore shoes with my newly acquired heel insert for the windmills - what a difference! My form has always been pretty good, but I actually felt the movement in my hamstrings once my hips became level.

So, it is possible (now that my hamstrings are getting the focus during the windmills) that by the time my cycle is finished that the ROM for MN/PE2 will be more reasonable. However, I still would like to know where the marker for starting ROM should be placed. In other words, prior to what point in the movement do we remain on the previous progression working on whatever limitation is preventing forward progress?

- Chris

depending on how you do windmills, not only will you give your hamstrings a good stretch(when you go down) the way that you go up, you can actually contract your hamstring and glute, which will start strenghtening it. with more Strength in your Hamstring/Glute, by the time you get to Straddle ups, on top of the volume with Jefferson curls, you'll work your hamstrings enough to properly excecute Straddle ups. 

question, do you do your windmills ass-out or do you just bend?

if you push your hips out, you'll get a stretch and when you bring it back, squeeze your glutes/hamstrings to bring you up. 

this alone has given me sore hamstrings and i've ridden bikes for a good 10yrs. riding clipped in, clipless, doing tricks, etc.

try that out and see how it goes for you!

Have always done them with the glute pushed towards the side and back. But, it wasn't until I tried them with the heel insert in place the other day that I actually felt them in my hamstrings. So ... fingers crossed that this will start improving things in that area.

- Chris