About Butterfly

Hello,

Can anyone explainme why in the code of points, a butterfly to support its a C, and a butterfly to iron cross a D? The first one includes an iron cross pull that it's harder than a single iron cross.....

Also would be good to know the oppinion of someone here that actually does this move. In my oppinion this move must be an E or something, it feels just impossible to do it. What do you think?

Regards.

Both of them have the same initiation: you pull to the cross position. If you go to support, you can use your momentum to assist you through the cross pull. However, if you stop in a cross, then you can't use your momentum, and you have to hold a cross while already fatigued from the pull. 

Also note that one skill being harder than another does not always mean that it will be a difficulty rating higher. The front-lever and L-sit are both 'A' rated. The maltese and the press from maltese to planche are both 'D' difficulty. A cross is significantly harder than a hollow-back press, but they are both a 'B'. 

From what I've been told and done on a dream machine, stopping in the cross is much harder because you have to stop the momentum you built up. For butterfly support it is easier to start off fast and go through cross without holding. The cross pullout is the easiest part of the butterfly.

Edit: jfslocum beat me to it.

Chiming in, I will double check the FIG I'm always rusty, but is there a butterfly => support in it? Butterfly=>cross is a D as you guys have said, the only other variation I know of is a Li Xiaoshuang, which is a C. The reason is though that it involves a lower from support to dead hang-bounce to cross. Making it a significantly easier albeit still VERY difficult and C rated skill. And beautiful.

Btw yes, world class gymnasts, the only people who can do butterflies have stated that it is harder than a good deal of E skills.

If there is a Butterfly to support in the FIG, think of it as this, moving through a static strength hold will always be easier than pausing in one. Kind of like how an azarian-L sit is a B, even though it passes through a Maltese (sort of).

Thank you guys. Thats strange, who rate the movements then? gymnasts or judges? if gymnasts say that butterfly are like E skills....

Btw yes, world class gymnasts, the only people who can do butterflies have stated that it is harder than a good deal of E skills.

If there is a Butterfly to support in the FIG, think of it as this, moving through a static strength hold will always be easier than pausing in one. Kind of like how an azarian-L sit is a B, even though it passes through a Maltese (sort of).

There is. It is actually right above the Li Xiashuang in the latest COP.

Thank you guys. Thats strange, who rate the movements then? gymnasts or judges? if gymnasts say that butterfly are like E skills....

FIG determines the code of points.  It is a group of people, probably most were gymnasts turned judges.  They rank skills both on difficulty and in my opinion what they would rather see in the routines.  

Daniel Burnham said:

There is. It is actually right above the Li Xiashuang in the latest COP.

 

FIG determines the code of points.  It is a group of people, probably most were gymnasts turned judges.  They rank skills both on difficulty and in my opinion what they would rather see in the routines.  

It's not just your opinion. The code reflects aesthetics. That's why one armed levers are not in it, for example. It's also why they changed the maximum number of connected strength elements from four to three: to mandate more swinging. 

I'd like to know the formula behind determining skill categories as well. I think part of it has to do with how few possible categories there are and how many diverse skills there are.

Since butterfly-support does exist in the FIG at C, I believe most people would find it considerably harder than static rings planche (2 sec), but if it were bumped up to a D, certain other D skills would have to be bumped up to E so on so forth. When I consider skills I don't usually take the letter rating too seriously. I kind of judge the skills as stand alone elements. Some way harder than others.

Skill difficulty varies with anthromorphism, too. I find a Maltese easier than a cross. That doesn't mean it should be an 'a'.

And, as said previously, not all skills of the same difficulty rating are of exactly the same difficulty. There is a nearly continuous distribution of difficulty, and the precise cutoffs are arbitrary. The fact that one skill is significantly harder than another skill of does not necessarily mean it should be a higher difficulty.

Skill categories currently exist based on tradition. I don't know that they have changed at all in a long time.

Edit: after the fact I remembered another example. A static Victorian is only an E, and only one man in the world is doing it properly. And Gregor Saksida himself said that it was more difficult than all other E's and F's.

Also, I'm sure we could think up examples as to why the FIG seems not to rate entirely based on difficulty until we're blue in the face, but here's one more that I think is curious. As mentioned above, Maltese push to planche is a D. A combination of a C and a D skill to make just a D.

Iron cross press to inverted cross is graded higher at an E, and yet it only combines a B and a C level skill. Of course there are things to consider such as the latter requiring moving through more planes and a greater overall ROM but sometimes these things have me scratching my head. There's several other examples, just wanted to point that one out.

About inverted cross...also i think that move should be rated harder. There is not so much gymnasts doing it proper, as i've seen. Also its a move with no so much info of how to progress in, including this forum.

Provably the best inv. cross i've seen its from Yibing.

Agreed. Back in the day when there was only three categories A, B and C, inverted cross was on the same level as Maltese. My ignorant opinion is that it should be D like Maltese. Personally I find it harder than Maltese when I work dumbed down versions of both.

Oh and Mingyong also has a phenomenal inverted cross.

Edit: Check out the inverted cross Dong Zhen does in this routine. Really cool routine overall.